Justice committee  The situation—

Justice committee  As defence lawyers, we see the harm that is caused by these acts. Having a constitutional duty to defend and make sure that our justice system works, and that people are only found guilty of what they are legally and factually guilty of, is a vital part of our process. You asked if I would feel that a sentence would be long enough if a member of my family were victimized in this way—

Justice committee  But that exact sort of thing is why we need a completely objective justice system, because one cannot expect a victim of a terrible crime to see this in the way that the justice system must operate. The justice system is the state against an accused individual; it's not the civil system.

Justice committee  The first thing I'd say, sir, is that you used the term “non-serious assaults on children”. No, I certainly don't believe there would be a sexual assault on a child that is not serious. I don't think you'll find a defence lawyer anywhere who would think that a sexual assault on a child should not be taken seriously.

Justice committee  Public denunciation is very much part of any sentencing and especially in a horrendous matter like child sex abuse. A judge has to say, in sentencing an individual, “You have committed a terrible crime, but there are many factors that I have to consider.” How does one, as a judge, say the sentence should be a very deterrent sentence, but then emphasize public denunciation more and increase that beyond what it should be?

Justice committee  Yes, I agree with my colleague. These are very significant increases. I believe it is far more likely now that there will be constitutional challenges, there will be a finding of gross disproportionality, and that means the entire sentencing regime must be struck down. It is not possible to simply take one offender out of that.

Justice committee  Thank you. In addition to being a practising defence lawyer in Toronto, I also have served as a part-time assistant crown attorney and a standing agent for the Attorney General of Canada, so the perspective I bring encompasses both defence and prosecution experience. The CBA supports measures that enhance the safety of Canadians, particularly the most vulnerable members of our society.

Public Safety committee  It's very important to have safeguards, but I would suggest that a better system of safeguards, rather than the Attorney General of Canada, for example, reporting to Parliament, would be an independent supervisory body such as the Security Intelligence Review Committee. An attorney general reporting to Parliament is a safeguard, and I do agree it is some safeguard.

Public Safety committee  The law could easily do that.

Public Safety committee  Yes, by using present provisions of the code.

Public Safety committee  I would think it highly unlikely that a person would go to a training camp for a research project. They're there to commit crimes and learn how to commit crimes. They don't just show up there. There has been an organization and an agreement to have the person received. That could be dealt with under present conspiracy law because they have agreed with another party to train to commit an offence, which has some effect or some basis in Canada.

Public Safety committee  I don't believe that's going to be effective, sir.

Public Safety committee  As a practising lawyer, I see that peace bonds are often used as a way to get rid of criminal charges and that they are not enforced. They are of very limited value. There isn't a real follow-up. A peace bond may be quite useful in dealing with a minor offence, or in the case of a person who, for example, got into trouble because of a drinking problem, just as an example.

Public Safety committee  I could make a number of comments in response to Mr. Leef. I'll try to do it quickly, Mr. Scott, so that I don't take up much of your time. First of all, my purpose, from the Canadian Bar Association, is to analyze this legislation. We have tools. We have the Criminal Code. We have, for example, wiretap legislation.

Public Safety committee  I would like to thank the committee for the opportunity to present the views of the Canadian Bar Association on this very important legislation. There is no question that the prevention of terrorist action is vital to preserving our society. This requires effective legislation, but also legislation that respects the traditions of our democracy.