Industry committee  Well, I've been listening to all of the presentations. I've been here at all of those committee meetings, except one, and I've read all of the transcripts. I am absolutely appalled--and that's the word I'm going to use, “appalled”--that businesses say that they cannot keep their commitments to their employees for business reasons, for increased credit.

Industry committee  No question.

Industry committee  Absolutely.

Industry committee  I just have a comment on bonds in pension funds. They do not have Nortel junk bonds in pension funds. They're below investment grade.

Industry committee  I don't think it would be better protection than that under Bill C-501 even if it were all across Canada for $1,000 a month. That legislation in Ontario was put in place in 1980 based on 1980 salaries and norms. There was a report put together by Professor Harry Arthurs, which was submitted to the Ontario government in 2008.

Industry committee  Yes, I do. I know that WEPPA was introduced in September 2009. It was made retroactive to the end of January 2009, just missing the Nortel employees by about two weeks, and that would have guaranteed them $2,000 of severance pay. There's no way the legislation in WEPPA is going to repay or pay up the severance pay that is owed to the employees.

Industry committee  I really don't know whether I can answer that particular question. I don't know the details of the running of the company. Although I was formerly an assistant vice-president, we never got into the nitty-gritty financials of the company.

Industry committee  In the U.K. system, they have the pension benefit guarantee, and that unit of the government guarantees the pensions of the employees of any company that goes into bankruptcy. They're guaranteed up to £28,000 per year. They also guarantee the pension deficits, and they're going after the Canadian estate for that pension deficit.

Industry committee  We're seeing it at 65%. And when the pension benefit guarantee fund gets applied to us—we have an indexed pension—they've informed us that they can't provide indexed pensions, because the Canadian market can't supply them. We're looking at $2.5 billion in annuities. Trying to put that amount of money into annuities at this time will cripple the market, especially when the market for annuities is so low.

Industry committee  I wouldn't say it was more attractive than Bill C-501, because it only affects the people who work in Ontario. In the Nortel case, where we had people working all across Canada--we have huge populations in Calgary and Edmonton, and 30% of our employees work in Quebec--they will not get any of that pension benefit guarantee.

Industry committee  Yes.

Industry committee  If you did go retroactive with this bill, what would happen is that the company would be held liable for its commitments to its employees; that the funds for their pensions would come out of the asset sales of the company. And it's a commitment of long standing that they made when those employees started working for them.

Industry committee  With regard to this Supreme Court ruling—

Industry committee  --British Columbia put in a statute called the Tobacco Damages and Health Care Cost Recovery Act. Imperial Tobacco took them to court, and it went all the way to the Supreme Court of Canada. The Supreme Court of Canada ruled that provinces and the federal government can put in retroactive legislation.

Industry committee  They had misrepresented and hidden facts, yes.