Information & Ethics committee  There should be disclosure that the public official has disclosed it to someone outside of the government. Really, they're the ones who are supposed to be upholding the public trust and respecting the confidentiality of information, so they should pay the highest penalty. If someone then uses it for their lobbying, the penalty should be very high, as well, because that's just a “who you know” system, people doing favours for you inside secretly.

Information & Ethics committee  The former Commissioner of Lobbying, Karen Shepherd, who used to disclose in a chart the cases that came before her, found more than a hundred lobbyists guilty of violating the lobbyists' code, but she let them all off. She didn't issue a report to Parliament. She let them off with having to write an essay and, as a result, did not name them.

Information & Ethics committee  Yes. It has to be manageable to be fair. It would be an administrative burden on the commissioner, but the blanket five-year cooling-off period was extended to all MPs and their staff because of the scandal involving a former MP back in 2010. It shouldn't have been extended to everybody as the same five-year blanket rule.

Information & Ethics committee  Yes. Clinical psychologists have tested tens of thousands of people worldwide and all humans have been influenced by even small gifts or favours. If someone does you a favour, you feel a sense of obligation—unconsciously, actually—to return the favour. Doctors were given free samples of drugs by pharmaceutical companies.

Information & Ethics committee  Small gifts have influence.

Information & Ethics committee  As I said, clinical psychologists have studied this. Read Dan Ariely or Robert Cialdini, who is the guru of influence. The number one way to influence someone is to do a favour for them or give them a gift. That's why, when you're at a restaurant, your server gives you some mints.

Information & Ethics committee  It works because that's what humans do: “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” It's the golden rule. It works everywhere.

Information & Ethics committee  No. Secret lobbying will only be stopped when the act is changed to close all of the many loopholes that allow for secret lobbying. Mr. Thurlow had said earlier today that if someone did secret lobbying it would be illegal. That's not true at all. If you're not paid to lobby, then you don't have to register.

Information & Ethics committee  Well, regarding more change to the current code, currently if you are involved in significant campaigning or any fundraising, then you have to sit out past the next election to match the five-year cooling-off period after you leave public office before becoming a registered lobbyist.

Information & Ethics committee  Yes, if this rule sticks and other political work goes through as is, I believe it actually violates the Charter of Rights of the 17.2 million voters in Canada who are not paid lobbyists. They have a right under the Supreme Court's several rulings, to democracy, to democratic good government and to have confidence in the appearance of integrity of every political process.

Information & Ethics committee  It should be a sliding scale. It should be based on your power and it should be specific to who you could lobby. You might be a low-level staffer who is a great friend of the Prime Minister's. It doesn't much matter that you're low-level. It's [Technical difficulty—Editor] and it should be based on relationships and personalized on a case-by-case basis, with a sliding scale from one to five years.

Information & Ethics committee  Are you talking about the cooling-off period in the act?

Information & Ethics committee  The precision is there in the gifts and hospitality rule, and that's fine. In terms of rule 6 and the definition of “other political work”, yes, the terms need to be defined. They shouldn't be left the way they are, because they're going to allow for unlimited fundraising while lobbying.

Information & Ethics committee  —for any significant campaigning and any fundraising.

Information & Ethics committee  The gifts rule clarifies the dollar amount, but, again, the Ethics Commissioner and Commissioner of Lobbying already set that out, so it doesn't have to be set out in the code. It was already set out in guidelines and statements by both commissioners. Otherwise, it's a gutting of the rules.