Government Operations committee  You're asking about good faith. This discussion comes up every single time that we introduce new people to these laws. There's fear propagated that you're going to be overrun with people with these frivolous accusations. It conjures up in my mind a vision of all these people jostling and fighting each other to get to the front of the line for their turn at the guillotine.

Government Operations committee  Yes, you're clearly hungry for very specific answers rather than generalities, and I'll throw out a couple of them. One we've mentioned already is what we call “interim relief” in the act. We first thought that was for the whistle-blower, and then we read it more closely and realized it was for those accused of carrying out the wrongdoing.

Government Operations committee  They currently have no alternative. Some of our witnesses in 2017 suggested scrapping it altogether because it's so complex, convoluted and full of traps. However, I don't see anybody putting forward any proposal like that, so I think we have no choice but to try to fix it.

Government Operations committee  We keep hearing this request for one or two things, and you got a good answer: Pass the bill. The second thing is to make the bill stronger. Clearly, in our judgment, there's no possibility of substantially changing the outcomes of this bill, which are totally unacceptable without some significant changes.

Government Operations committee  I'll speak to that first. I think we have to start with the law. The sequence that I've heard is informed public outrage, which leads to enormous pressure on politicians, which leads to law. That's the sequence, and that's what we're seeing in other countries. We have no shortage of scandals that should have caused outrage in Canada, but we haven't had people in the streets and people going to jail.

Government Operations committee  Thank you. Thank you to the committee for hearing us. I really appreciate it. I have to confess that I feel very nervous today. I don't usually, and I think the reason is that there's so much at stake here. We have such a huge issue. I think the committee's beginning to realize that.

Government Operations committee  Yes, and I've partly answered that question already. Obviously whistle-blowing is not the answer to everything, but it's a tool that can act as a last resort when everything else has failed to expose things that are going wrong. It's not necessarily to do with deliberate wrongdoing—it can be just incompetence or whatever—but if there's public harm, then the employees involved are often the last resource you have available, and research also indicates that it is by far the most effective way of uncovering these situations.

Government Operations committee  I don't know enough about that registry and how it works to say whether they should be registering.

Government Operations committee  I agree that it doesn't look good. I would say that from the little I do know about lobbying systems, I think it's yet another weak system that's put in place supposedly to provide some limitations and control over lobbying but probably really doesn't work very well.

Government Operations committee  Yes, it is. The point I was trying to make earlier, perhaps not very eloquently, was that it's just the tip of the iceberg. Those people who went “external”, if you like, and went to the media are taking a tremendous risk. It's a last resort. Research indicates that only 1% or 2% of whistle-blowers resort to going out to the media, even when everything else has failed.

Government Operations committee  I think it's strange that public servants would be counselled in that way. I think public servants are very reluctant to do anything or say anything that will end up in publicity. Whistle-blowers who are coming forward with serious problems that could even be life-threatening almost never go to the media; they go up the chain of command.

Government Operations committee  No. They are not adequately protected, and people in this committee are mostly very clear about that. On your point about public servants being worried about bad publicity or saying anything that might get out into the media, we've seen some examples of that happening. Those are really desperate situations when people feel that they have to go that far.

Government Operations committee  Absolutely, yes. Lots of other countries are doing this. We know what works and what doesn't. It's a simple matter, really, to change the legislation to make this system work better.

Government Operations committee  That question is I think a really good one, and it's one I haven't thought about a lot, so I'm not sure I can give you a good answer. I would say that it's a real issue and that you'd have to look at the situation. I'm sure the people around you can provide good answers as to what kinds of standards and limitations should be applied in that situation.

Government Operations committee  All big consulting firms have to be very effective at marketing their services. They have thousands of people and need a constant revenue stream in keeping all these folks busy. McKinsey kind of stands out as being extremely prestigious and having created this kind of top-dog situation that they're able to exploit to maintain that status.