Industry committee  Fine. They say that this is money that has been lost but they did not state whether or not they were taking into account the money that had been made by consumers and whether or not that was a net amount. I did not read that.

Industry committee  I have two comments to make in response to your first question. First, with respect to a retailer being able to take a screwdriver and make adjustments, that can't happen because seals have to be used and they are put on the pumps. So it's not possible to do that. My second comment is on the $20 million that you spoke about.

Industry committee  Mr. Chairman, I'd like to add some information in response to the very interesting question that member raised. We were also wondering where that two-thirds, one-third came from, that is that in two-thirds of cases it's unfair for consumers and in a third of the cases it is. As Mr.

Industry committee  Ms. Savage made a suggestion that we support.

Industry committee  I don't know how many consumers in Quebec are aware that pump calibration is regulated. I don't think they know. Will consumers have greater trust? I think that when things are done properly, when people are serious and support fairness—and there are no studies that show there is a lack of fairness—I think we need to make sure that there is an accurate perception on the part of consumers.

Industry committee  Exactly, given that the system already works well.

Industry committee  Your question should probably be put to a legal expert rather than a witness here. In my opinion, if consumers are well served and the province is ensuring that retailers comply with rules that go beyond what is in this bill, you need to make sure that there won't be two rules or two series of rules that will have to be met.

Industry committee  We support the goals of the bill because its purpose is to make sure that people get their money's worth. The problem is that it is implying that individuals are almost acting deliberately to not give them their money's worth. It's not acceptable to introduce that kind of bias in the debate.

Industry committee  As we stated earlier, we agree with the goals of the bill. We simply hope that there won't be overlap with provincial regulation, where it exists, and that the message being sent out will not accuse gasoline retailers who, as officials have explained very clearly, are in no way dishonest and have in no way acted inappropriately.

Industry committee  It's difficult to answer that. In Quebec, in our situation, the government does not pay the inspectors; the retailers do. As in this bill, the government certifies inspectors who have to verify and calibrate the pumps. The government does not pay for that service in Quebec.

Industry committee  Sir, we did not see this as an attack against independent businesses but rather against gasoline retailers. First, as the CIPMA representative pointed out, the bill has been given its short title. Then, when the minister announced the bill he gave the impression that gasoline retailers were not acting appropriately.

Industry committee  In conclusion, we call upon parliamentarians to refrain from making regulations more cumbersome given that the province already ensures that fuel distributors are giving consumers their money's worth. Given that the lack of serious studies demonstrating that consumers have been ill served, we think there should be much greater caution in making unfair statements that unfairly target fuel retailers.

Industry committee  There are a number of conditions that need to be met in order to carry out such a project. First of all, you need the financial wherewithal. That is not easy to come by. Building a refinery can cost $2, $3 or as much as $4 billion. That's my first point. The second point is that you have to have not only the ability to get it built, but also the ability to keep it operating subsequently when you are coming up against the big oil giants, whose financial resources are practically unlimited.

Industry committee  My comment is that there is already abundant evidence that the oil companies can afford to pay more taxes. We see that in their annual reports, which indicate record profits year after year. You also talked about special levies that would apply to refineries. I would just like to remind you that in Quebec, there was a « budget crisis » last week.

Industry committee  I would just like to add to that answer by saying that what protects consumers best is the presence of competition. The reason Quebec intervened in the retail petroleum products sector was the major crisis in 1996, when gas was being sold for 35¢ at the pump and for 56¢ at the refinery, to anyone who wanted to take his truck over to buy a litre of gas.