Procedure and House Affairs committee  I have a couple of questions and I wouldn't mind getting a quick comment from the three of you on this. Do you believe that it is important that we keep the current voter information card in principle, and maybe change, or look for ways of modifying it, improving it? Do you think it would be a mistake for us to get rid of that particular card or devalue the card in any way?

Procedure and House Affairs committee  Well, what we were just talking about was the education of people on where to vote, how to vote, what they need to vote, which is where the voter information card or other forms of ID come from.

Procedure and House Affairs committee  Fundamentally or philosophically, I don't disagree with that. But again it's not me calling them the voter information card—

Procedure and House Affairs committee  “How” meaning what kind of ID to present, which would eliminate a lot of the problems with the VICs, but I would also point out that the only true way to eliminate voter fraud—because of the problems everyone has with databases and I fully agree with that—is to produce proper identification, not through vouching, not through voter information cards, but through proper identification. As an example, someone told me just a day or so ago that if you wanted to renew your Ontario health card now—do you know the process you have to go through?

Procedure and House Affairs committee  Well, they call them voter information cards, not voter identification cards. That just points out that whatever—

Procedure and House Affairs committee  Voter information cards....

Procedure and House Affairs committee  Are you aware that at the moment, under the regime put in place in 2011 in a number of trial locations amounting to about 900,000 people being able to use the VICs, the voter information cards, that you need a second piece of identity? In other words, if somebody received a card that's in the name of a previous occupant, they would have to go out of their way to forge a second piece of ID and they would also have to have the intention.

Business of Supply  Speaker, my colleague from Labrador and I share a common situation when it comes to elections, and that is in regard to seniors and seniors' residences. Remember, a lot of seniors still use and bank on getting in the mail that voter information card for their piece of identification for residency. Many of them do not have a driver's licence, which is the ultimate hammer when it comes to identification, because it has the address, and of course, it is recognized identification.

Business of Supply  As of right now, according to this legislation, I cannot vote. My driver's licence shows a post office box on as the address. I cannot use my voter information card anymore. That is what a lot of seniors use, incidentally, if I could pick out one sector of the population. I cannot use that anymore. My utility bills come electronically, so now I have to call my local power supplier and tell them to send me a paper bill.

Privilege  At the committee on procedure and House affairs, there have been many examples given where voter information cards have been handed out multiple times to the same individual. Yes, we had the Infoman example. We have also had others who have testified. Frankly, there have been prosecutions based on the fact that others have said that they have voted on more than one occasion.

Procedure and House Affairs committee  At the same time, as Mr. Allen said, why not keep vouching as the final safety net and not get rid of the voter information cards? They do come from an intersection of databases that have not been shown to be liable to produce fraud. Professor Oudshoorn, I'd like to just compliment you and your colleagues in London for what you do.

Procedure and House Affairs committee  I'd like to pick up a little, if I could, on the voter information card. The government gets very upset when we say voter identification card because that's what we think it should be. You've got a lot of experience with that. I even heard, maybe on the previous panel, forgive me if that's the case, but someone gave testimony and said the amount—I think it was one of you—of work it takes to get the voter identification card because that, with vouching, could get you a ballot and you'd be allowed to vote.

Procedure and House Affairs committee  Right. When I deal with seniors, one of the things they lean on heavily is the voter information card. It is quite possibly one of the most famous things we use, and it almost seems to me now that with the new rules and the way they are, I don't even know if Elections Canada can really communicate to the point where they can tell people, “By the way, you can't use that anymore”.

Procedure and House Affairs committee  I think this is a much more appropriate solution in order to improve the system, rather than eliminating the vouching system entirely and using the voter information cards. Do you agree with the CEO's recommendation?

Procedure and House Affairs committee  Democracy Watch's conclusion is that the current measure prohibiting vouching and prohibiting use of the voter information card will be found to be unconstitutional, and there is a reasonable compromise that includes empowering Elections Canada to hire people earlier, which means the parties could still put forward suggestions.