Industry committee  Yes, we do. I can get you the exact number if you like. Our balance is such that we're net exporters.

Industry committee  We're at a crossroads in this country, and it's an important crossroads. We have a public that is demanding action on the environment, action on climate change, low gasoline prices, and other things as well. There is going to come a point in time where all of these requirements are not reconcilable, and it's going to be a tough transition for all of us--members of the CPPI, the Canadian public, and public policy makers.

Industry committee  Mr. Vincent, it's very simple. The proponents to build a refinery have to go to their financing sources and say, “This is why it is worth your investment”. What you've seen up until at least recently is that the people who have the capital to give are looking at it and saying, “No, I can put that money elsewhere and make a better return”.

Industry committee  Conversely, you could do what many of our members have already done, and I'll remind you that even though some refineries have closed, existing refineries have expanded. The advantage of expanding an existing refinery rather than building a new one, among other things, is—You have to deal with the community around you.

Industry committee  It is because the border, simply put, is only useful in this industry for the calculation of Statistics Canada data. The reality is that it's a North American market for the product. In some respects you could also make the argument that not only do we take the prices, but Canadian consumers are competing with American consumers for the same product that, generally speaking, can move anywhere in North America.

Industry committee  If you tried to set a price that was substantially different from that which you experience south of the border, it would manifest itself in another fashion. It could be a supply shortage, because product moves to the highest price, and in this case, whether it's gasoline or corn, it's a commodity, and the supply is going to go to the highest price.

Industry committee  Because the refining operation is— There are a number of factors here. First of all, we are a very regulated industry. When governments, in both Canada and the United States, make pronouncements about conservation and energy efficiency—i.e., that we have to cut down on our consumption—they're sending messages into the marketplace that this is not a lucrative area to invest in.

Industry committee  On an annualized basis we are net exporters. I'll get you the latest data from Statistics Canada. It works out to about 10% of the product that we make being exported.

Industry committee  The medium-grade blend in Ontario right now is problematic. That is a function of the Government of Ontario's specifications on renewable fuels. As Ms. Savage explained, you cannot take regular, unleaded gasoline that has ethanol in it and mix it at the pump with high grade to get medium grade, because the chemistry just doesn't work.

Industry committee  Under ordinary circumstances I would suggest actually that the Canadian marketplace is a more stable, friendly marketplace, from a pro-competition point of view, but there have been some bizarre things happening. There has not been a refinery built in North America—period—for many, many years.

Industry committee  I was here for Ms. Savage's testimony, and what I understood her to say was that the specs themselves.... For example, sulphur is uniform. In fact, one of the truly Canadian success stories is that the implementation of the desulphurization plan was done in a way that we could stay competitive with our American counterparts who have also embarked on desulphurization.

Industry committee  The first thing I would point out to you is that margin does not equal profit. When you see a refinery margin, whether it be 10¢ or 20¢, that is just a simple calculation of the difference between the wholesale price and the crude inputs. What I'm telling you is that our profits are averaging about 1.5¢ a litre.

Industry committee  The first question, as I understand it, is what members are attempting to do to ensure that there is reliable access to quality product in Canada. I will say to you that they're doing everything they can to make the investments that are necessary to ensure that their operations are running at full capacity, because it's in their business interests to do so.

Industry committee  Well, let's step back. At a principled level, in terms of a petroleum monitoring agency, the CPPI does actually support that concept. In the case identified by Ms. Savage a couple of days ago, where you can advertise inventory slowdowns in advance, my economics training tells me that when that kind of information gets posted, you're going to see a more immediate response by way of price reactions.

Industry committee  I don't want to give you the impression that our companies are facing tough times. I do want to impress upon you that a number of public policy decisions are placing strains on the refining sector in this country. And let's make a distinction between upstream and downstream. We represent the downstream.