Industry committee  To the extent that they need to be made, a lot of the others can be very simple one-line amendments. The CACN, by the way, is proposing an omnibus anti-counterfeiting piece of legislation. Rather than doing a piecemeal chop and change, we need to do a single bill. This is the way they've done it in a variety of jurisdictions around the world: one bill that makes counterfeiting and importing counterfeit items clearly illegal, and then everything flows from there.

Industry committee  My feeling is that we should implement the recommendations. That's very important. From there on, it becomes a question of working with industry and stakeholders to implement and roll out the legislation and make it have effect. I don't believe--and I think this is what Mr. Lipkus's point is--that it is impossible for people to tell the difference.

Industry committee  Civil remedies are not appropriate for criminals. That's the bottom line.

Industry committee  These regimes have been in place in other countries. Believe me, everybody would want to think about this. We have the advantage of going last. It simply hasn't presented a problem.

Industry committee  I was going to say that the RCMP has done an interesting study to illustrate just how profitable this activity is and why the proceeds of crime legislation is so important. It's in our report here. They do this comparison, drugs compared to intellectual property crime, a risk analysis: cocaine, three kilograms, worth $90,000 to the criminal, it fits in a small box, and conviction is five to seven years; Windows XP, a thousand of them, worth $450,000--not $90,000, but $450,000--or five times as much to the criminal, it fits in a small box, and conviction is a minimal fine.

Industry committee  If we had an intellectual property rights council that could consider these issues, that could prioritize them...that's part of what we're lacking. Part of it is to get some laws. The next step is to have some coordination between a variety of departments, where we actually sit down as Canadians, stakeholders and otherwise, and set priorities.

Industry committee  We've provided you with one case study of what happens when a retailer is treated the way they're currently treated. It's an extraordinary story. He's charged repeatedly, and he keeps doing it. What is the common feature here? He's not going to jail. That's sending a very serious message to the criminal community.

Industry committee  He is a retailer. He has a store in a mall.

Industry committee  No, that person needs to be charged, as opposed to just fined. But what's happening—and I think Mr. Lipkus can attest to this, because he sees it on the ground every day—is that this is moving into retail. It's not just flea markets; these are stores in malls. And in the case of the Pacific Mall, there are 50 or more of them.

Industry committee  I think you have to also remember that intellectual property rights are not a zero-sum game. Helping another country to build an effective intellectual property rights regime does not hurt you; it actually strengthens the entire international marketplace. I think there's a terrific opportunity here for Canada and the United States to work together effectively and in close cooperation on an issue that we share.

Industry committee  I'll go back to the French campaign I cited earlier, the Non merci campaign that you're talking about. It's been going for two years. Look at the partners again. The ministries of economy, finance, and industry—that tells you how significantly the French treat this. They see it as an economic issue and a financial issue.

Industry committee  We don't have to amend the entire Criminal Code. When you look at the recommendations, they're very surgical. It's legislation and amendments coupled with an ongoing, down-the-road education campaign.

Industry committee  You're asking if it will make a difference. I think it is instructive to look at piracy rates in the United States, where they've had effective, vigorous laws against intellectual property rights crimes, and where they pay a lot of attention to intellectual property rights. As I said, 39% of Canadians knowingly or unknowingly acquire counterfeit products.

Industry committee  The point is that we know a surprising amount about this. When we get the study translated and you've had a chance to read it, I think you'll agree that we know a surprising amount. As far as I'm aware, only one person and maybe one official have suggested we don't know enough.

Industry committee  We can have as many policies as we want, but the issue is that it's not going to be recognized businesses in China that are sending us that, it's going to be the pirates. The issue then becomes, what do we need the Chinese to do, or what do we need whatever source country to do?