Environment committee  Right, absolutely, I would echo Mr. Florean's comments about the importance of the stewardship model. I actually sat for six years on the Brant stewardship committee in the same kind of framework that he was describing. I would completely echo what he said. It was an extremely important way to deliver the objectives of the Canada-Ontario agreement, and that's true across the board.

Environment committee  Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Thank you very much for inviting us to appear here today. With me, as you noted, is Ms. Fe de Leon, researcher and paralegal with the Canadian Environmental Law Association. I'm counsel and executive director with the Canadian Environmental Law Association.

International Trade committee  In the case of mining, I don't know for sure whether there is one internationally that could be pointed to. What has happened is that in the past, there has been case-by-case sparring, and that has led to specific approvals, in the Canadian history for sure, for a specific mine.

International Trade committee  I agree. I would look to the specific standards that exist. For example, water standards are generally quite high in Canada, so you can be looking at both the freshwater quality objectives that Ontario has as well as the drinking water guidelines that Canada sets. There's no reason that you should be having the situation where Canadian companies have to meet anything less abroad.

International Trade committee  Everything I could find out about it right now is very high level, so my comments are equally high level. I think where there is potential benefit is in the fact that in environmental technologies Canada has a lot of opportunity to do innovation. Specifically, as I mentioned, the Latin American bank was noting the pressures around energy and water, for example.

International Trade committee  No, I'm not saying that.

International Trade committee  Yes, I do, and I would say starting with Canada's own companies operating abroad. CELA did work in the past. We had a trade and environment program and specifically had a project with CIDA funding. One of the issues that was extremely important was the public participation and engagement of the surrounding community in the process of deciding whether, how, and how to operate the benefits, etc.

International Trade committee  Some of the agreements have environmental chapters or side agreements or annexes. The proof is in the pudding, so to speak, in terms of how well those are enforced and monitored and what kinds of rights they give for citizen engagement, for example, in all of the member countries.

International Trade committee  I think the ones with these countries are too new to say. The NAFTA one is the longest standing one. There's the Commission for Environmental Cooperation that was set up with Mexico, Canada, and the United States. There are some useful mechanisms there. For example, when there's tri-country reporting on the level of pollution by the biggest polluters in the three countries, it's been useful for the three countries to see a joint report where they see who are the biggest polluters, in which country.

International Trade committee  I mentioned investor state in particular, because I do worry about that operating as a regulatory chill. I'd like that to be deleted. Any of the harmonization provisions should specifically retain the right of the countries and jurisdictions in question to be able to pursue what they, in good faith, see to be proper health, welfare, labour safety, environmental protection rules.

International Trade committee  Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for inviting me to attend and make comments to you. My name, as indicated, is Theresa McClenaghan. I'm the executive director of and counsel with the Canadian Environmental Law Association. We're a 43-year-old federally incorporated not-for-profit environmental NGO and an Ontario specialty legal aid clinic.

International Trade committee  It's not my concern that environmental regulation amounts to non-tariff barriers, but that is a claim that is often made by industry. A lot of the language in the free trade agreements is trying to both address the avoidance of non-tariff barriers and still allow for environmental regulation.

International Trade committee  It didn't strike me as interesting or as standard either. I was more concerned about whether that would extend into the investment agreement, and it doesn't. In the investment agreement, the investors still have the right to bring claims for expropriation or indirect expropriation.

International Trade committee  But the Jordan agreement, I should say, just to answer your question, is more similar to the older agreements, and the language is still pretty boilerplate to those older agreements.

International Trade committee  Well, not for direct expropriation, but to argue that environmental regulation is indirect expropriation is where the problem lies.