Citizenship and Immigration committee  Right, and the study I'm quoting actually includes new immigrant women, as well.

Citizenship and Immigration committee  I don't think the visitors should bear the cost, or at least not the full cost. No, there's no appeal system in Canada anywhere where the appellants have to pay the full costs of the system. Also, I think if you ask visitors for payment, there's no incentive for the system to change.

Citizenship and Immigration committee  Unless you say that if they win, they get the money back. Then yes, maybe. Otherwise the visa will continue to be rejected. Then you pass on the visa to appeal.

Citizenship and Immigration committee  Assuming that across the board 50% of people are refused the first time due to administrative error on their own part, then maybe one way is to make the visa application process more easy to understand. Perhaps some kind of information could be more available to people who are applying, which hopefully would reduce the error rate.

Citizenship and Immigration committee  Thank you. I appreciate the stats. I have read those stats myself. I am talking about the experiences that we have seen at the clinic. I venture to guess that many MPs have seen similar situations. I still believe that having a family here.... I mean, I have no idea how many of the 83% are here for the business tour or are here to visit Canada without any family members.

Citizenship and Immigration committee  I think that interviews by the same officer who has the intention to reject someone might not be that useful. The interview will not change someone's mind if they believe that.… If they're still stuck with that dual intention issue, which is not valid under the law, or if someone still thinks that this person, despite all the proof they have provided—and even if you produce a house deed, your pension plan, you have kids in China—they still believe someone is going to stay here, then yes, of course an interview is not going to change anything.

Citizenship and Immigration committee  Instead of setting up an appeal system or spending more money examining visas, we are asking MPs to do the job of visa officers. I'm sure MPs are still better paid than visa officers right now. It is a cost to the system. I think maybe tracking the exits to determine whether there is a need, whether there's a huge issue, before we jump into anything....

Citizenship and Immigration committee  Of course, this is all anecdotal evidence based on my own experience, because we do not know exactly how many people live in Canada without status to begin with. About ten years ago, I heard the estimate of 200,000 in Toronto and one million across Canada, but I have no idea whether that's legitimate or not.

Citizenship and Immigration committee  I was the one who made that comment about the family being a detriment.

Citizenship and Immigration committee  Sometimes an even sadder situation is when the family is trying to come here to see the family member for the last time, and after they get the visa they end up going to the funeral. I guess to answer the first question first—what we can do—I think as you mentioned, rather than looking at the individual applicant, at the sponsor, maybe look at all of those things in the context of the principles we're talking about.

Citizenship and Immigration committee  May I answer? I think if you ask for bonds it means that only people who have the cash up front will be able to come and visit again. Of course, you can do a number of things to make the system harder for people to get in, but my question is, at what cost, and who are you excluding?

Citizenship and Immigration committee  To address your question about the super visa, in my experience many of the people simply do not apply because they don't think they're going to be eligible. Apart from needing to meet the income requirement, you also need to have a lot of cash in order to apply. I think a lot of people simply cannot be bothered.

Citizenship and Immigration committee  Exactly. When a visitor visa is refused, those applicants who have the wherewithal can hire lawyers and seek judicial review of the negative decision by the Federal Court. For the vast majority of the applicants, however, the court process is simply too costly and too complicated, and it takes too much time to complete.

Citizenship and Immigration committee  Thank you, and good morning. My name is Avvy Go, and I am the clinic director of the Metro Toronto Chinese and Southeast Asian Legal Clinic. We are a community-based organization, non-profit, that provides free legal services to low-income families in the Toronto area, particularly those from the Chinese and Southeast Asian communities.

Citizenship and Immigration committee  In terms of family class sponsorship or citizenship--