Industry committee  It may not, and that's where we get into concerns about provincial jurisdiction. If you're talking about consumer items bought in a particular place, I'm not sure where you would put that: perhaps in the Competition Act to make sure the consumer has a right to in effect override that kind of stipulation in a contract or licence.

Industry committee  Of course. I believe the act provides for a review every five years.

Industry committee  We can see that the current act is greatly inconveniencing consumers, especially in terms of the technical safeguards we are talking about today.

Industry committee  Right. I understand that there are occasionally safety regulations and other things that might also be covering the situation. But, Mr. Gaheer, I think the trouble is that the copyright TPMs are affecting real world products, and it's kind of an overreach, from our point of view.

Industry committee  In...?

Industry committee  No, but I guess when people say that things are unauthorized circumventions, they're referring to the unauthorized part being circumventing the TPM or causing some other kind of harm to the manufacturer. I think that's where the discussion gets a little confusing. As long as people pull those two apart—and we're talking about whether it otherwise harms the market or safety, apart from violating the TPM—then I think we'll have a more beneficial conversation.

Industry committee  Well, they certainly spend a lot of effort on trying to defeat bills like this, but yes, there have been situations where manufacturers have gone after especially aftermarket providers of auto parts and medical device secondary market manufacturers. They do ask for either injunctive relief or for damages, which tends to knock those folks out of the market.

Industry committee  Yes, I think we can get it. I don't think we're being a rogue state at all to give consumers a repair right. It's being brought forward in New York State. It's already in Massachusetts and a number of other states in the United States, so this debate is happening actively there.

Industry committee  Yes, I'm actually.... I don't have the bill right in front of me, the text—that's my mistake—but the definition of “repair” would be the place to go to try to add additional detail.

Industry committee  Thank you for your question. I'm going to make reference to a paper that I'll provide the committee. It's called, “If a Machine Could Talk, We Would Not Understand It”. It's from Anthony Rosborough. He discusses the fact that a definition has to be contextual. I won't go into it, but effectively what he was saying was, as I said in my remarks, “Interoperable for what purpose?”

Industry committee  I am hesitant to give you the text I would propose. However, I would like to submit it to you later. As I said, the study I mentioned offers some ideas.

Industry committee  I'll start, because I don't know, and I'll pass it to Matt. I hope he knows.

Industry committee  On the last point, I'd say that consumers are fairly conversant with making unauthorized repairs voiding their warranty. I think they expect that. I think they'd make this trade-off in the ability to go aftermarket. On your first point, for something like an insulin pump, I would hope that Health Canada would add any additional concerns through their legislation.

Industry committee  I was referring in those somewhat disjointed remarks at the end to the interoperability, because interoperability means different things. It's interoperable to the extent of doing what? I'm saying “interoperable” to the extent of making repairs. I hear the corporate side saying they don't want people to modify their equipment and that this might affect innovation.

Industry committee  Thank you, Chair. Honourable members, my name is John Lawford. I'm executive director and general counsel at PIAC, a national not-for-profit and registered charity. We provide legal and research services on behalf of consumers and, in particular, vulnerable consumer interests concerning the provision of important public services.