Social Security Programs  First, they are making a reform because they have to. It is glaringly obvious, how inefficient the federal government is. It is very clear that the action taken by the federal government in occupational training and job development is completely ineffective. This paper explains how disastrous the federal government's performance has been in terms of vocational training.

Social Security Programs  The federal proposal even encourages the provinces to opt out of welfare by giving them "candy" so that they feel compelled to join the federal program. It is very clear, I think, that this is not the way of the future. Only yesterday, three provinces with more than 60 per cent of Canada's population immediately said no to the proposed reform. I think that their position is justified in the light of their responsibility and desire to do the right thing in the future.

Financial Administration Act  As I understand it, this bill includes two major points. The first one is the date the budget is tabled. In this case, there is no clear indication that what the hon. member proposes is better than the existing procedure. However, I want to discuss the second point more in detail. The Auditor General report on the reasonableness of the estimated revenues in the preparation of the budget speech.

Social Security Programs  One head of this monster is increased program spending; the other head is the crushing complex system of taxation. During the last election Canadian taxpayers made it clear that they want politicians with the guts and the vision to lead the way with changes that will benefit them and their children no matter how difficult those changes may be. They can see the two headed monster and want it stopped before it devours their future.

Social Security Programs  When we read in the Toronto Star that: Top provincial officials flew into Ottawa to be briefed on the implications of Axworthy's social reform plan, but they were not given the dollar figures obtained by the Star and the document makes clear that it is deliberate. Obviously, efforts will have to be made, at the level of the committee responsible for holding hearings across the country to listen to Quebecers and Canadians, to ensure that the people appearing before us have all the relevant information at hand because, as a member of this committee, I had no intention of being a puppet.

Social Program Reform  We have put very clearly in the green book exactly what the fiscal parameters will be. We made very clear what we want Canadians to go through. Furthermore I wish the hon. member would talk to his leader and other colleagues. They seem to be saying that they do not want any consultations.

Social Program Reform  Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for the question because it gives me the opportunity to clear up one of the more serious misunderstandings. Let me just say that under the present formula, under the existing arrangements, the cash portion of the transfer of post-secondary education is declining every year.

Social Program Reform  Mr. Speaker, the discussion paper published by the federal government shows a very clear intent to centralize. Ottawa wants to centralize increasingly the powers related to education, manpower training and income security, which, you will agree, are all areas under provincial jurisdiction.

Social Program Reform  We will discuss these alternatives with the provinces and with all those interested in taking part in these discussions, and we will introduce legislation next year. As for the fiscal parameters, everybody knows that we have made a clear commitment to reduce our country's deficit to 3 per cent of the GDP by the end of the third year. And as the minister was saying, all the departments are encouraged to make cuts in order to help us reach our goal as easily as possible, without destroying the good things that we have now.

Social Program Reform  Speaker, yesterday, the Quebec government indicated that the social program reform is totally unacceptable. Quebec's position is clear: Ottawa still insists on controlling the economic, social and cultural development of the provinces. This reform is a centralizing effort irreconcilable with the prevailing consensus in Quebec for taking the authority over manpower training.

Social Security Programs  The finance minister has acknowledged that if you were to reduce unemployment premiums you would create many jobs. Yet there is not a clear plan in any of this that that will happen. In fact it is going to be a job destroyer if we continue to have the public pay these high premiums. If you pay people not to work they will not work.

Social Security Programs  Since 1981, the number of welfare recipients has doubled, reaching just over three million. Our social security system must protect the neediest. It is clear from the options proposed in the green paper that that is precisely our goal. Finally, members opposite are attacking the reform that we are tabling as if it were essentially an undebatable policy.

Social Security Programs  We heard speeches by the hon. member and the Minister. We would like to know, since I imagine they have a very clear position on this, what the hon. member thinks of the proposal that women's unemployment benefits could be based on their spouse's income. Could the hon. member tell us what she thinks of that?

Social Security Programs  The point I want to make this morning is that this discussion paper, which is supposed to launch a sweeping reform, this discussion paper called Improving Social Security in Canada , does not augur well, either for the people who need it or for the provinces, which are now responsible for all of these areas except unemployment insurance. It should be said loud and clear, and we will say it again, that this is not a program for people, whether they are unemployed, about to lose their jobs, need an income, are on welfare, or are first-time job seekers.

Social Security Programs  Women who lose their jobs are treated as second class citizens, they will be penalized for having a husband who makes money. They will receive either no UI benefits or significantly lower ones. This is a clear case of discrimination. I believe that if this was to be challenged in the Supreme Court under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, it would be ruled unconstitutional. Then there are the students.