Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  I think you'll understand if I stay away from the directly political issues. As a civil servant, it wouldn't be appropriate. You've put your finger on some very difficult questions, and I can't give you facile or easy answers. One of the problems is, of course, that we're not alone working on this.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  Again, we do need to get back to you on this to make sure we're replying accurately, but my experience has been that the NGOs that are most difficult for the Chinese to work with, the ones that are most likely to be refused, are ones that are actually not operating, at least openly, on Chinese territory.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  Thank you, Mr. Chair. These are people I've known for a long time, including Dr. Burton. I've worked with him in the Canadian embassy in Beijing and have known him for many years. Many of the other people you've had as witnesses I've known for a very long time as well. I respect their views in general.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  May I go with the last question first, if that's all right--

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  --particularly because of its importance. Of course, as you know, it has attracted the attention of our Prime Minister, who has spoken out strongly on this case, as have others, including some around this table and our chair. In our view, this is a particularly egregious case, because this is a Canadian citizen who is being held incommunicado.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  I could venture a general answer. This is not a simple question. This is 20% of the world's population. It's possible both may be true at the same time, and I'm not trying to be facetious. It is simply that with increasing prosperity in China, although relative--and we've just noted a couple of hundred million people who are living close to abject poverty--certainly their conditions of life have improved.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  Perhaps I could add a few words to that. I've been participating in the joint human rights committee for many years. I was at the first meeting. CIDA was present, and they have been present subsequently. The changing nature of CIDA's profile in China has necessitated closer and closer cooperation between the two.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  I think you raise a fair point. My response to that would be that when CIDA first began to operate in the early 1980s in China, other projects that did not have a direct impact on human rights were part of that. There was food aid. There was assistance to poverty alleviation and other aspects.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, honourable members. Thank you for inviting us here today to speak on behalf of the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade. My colleague Ms. Adèle Dion can speak directly to the Canada-China Joint Committee on Human Rights and on Canada's multilateral human rights engagement with China.