National Defence committee  This is probably one the lawyers should deal with. The Third Geneva Convention deals with prisoners of war. It deals with prisoners of war in the context of an international armed conflict--which this is not, per se, because we're in there helping the Afghan government. There's an article 3 that applies to non-international armed conflict.

National Defence committee  I will just add that it is actually quite common to have arrangements that get into a bit more detail than you could do in a treaty. We have them, for example, in the transfer of offenders. We have a treaty--the transfer of offenders treaties, the treaty between governments--but then we have administrative arrangements that lay out more specific details.

National Defence committee  In order to land yourself in the International Criminal Court, you have to have done a crime against humanity or a very serious crime. International law actually provides for and allows for the transfer of detainees, so it doesn't make any sense at all to suggest that somebody would end up in the International Criminal Court.

National Defence committee  In a way it is, and in a way that's exactly what we're trying to do. I think we have to bear in mind that Afghanistan is I think the fifth-poorest country in the world. It has huge economic challenges across the board, not the least of which relate to their justice system and their correctional service system.

National Defence committee  I think there is never any excuse for something as serious as human rights violations that rise to the level of torture or something like that. If we're talking about whether you have a cell that is a certain size and has a flush toilet, a different standard will obtain in some of the really poor countries.

National Defence committee  I think you've identified another of the challenges in Afghanistan: the relationship between the central government and the provincial governments. Having said that, I can tell you it is different, depending on which province you're in. Some of the provinces have much more robust justice systems than others, so it does vary.

National Defence committee  In a way, there are three questions. In another way, they're all the same question, which is basically, yes, the government in Afghanistan needs a lot of help. There are tremendous challenges there on all fronts--if that weren't the case, we wouldn't be there--but those challenges are on so many fronts that you have to start somewhere, and they're on so many fronts that an agreement alone is not enough.

National Defence committee  That's a question, in a way, that's best directed to the military on the ground, but because the nature of our operation in Afghanistan is multi-faceted, some of those who would be picked up may indeed be insurgents. Some of them might actually be those who've engaged in some criminal activity.

National Defence committee  Mr. Chairman, honourable members of the committee, I thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today in response to your request seeking to hear witnesses concerning any agreement allowing the transfer of prisoners in theatre from Canadian custody to any other. I will provide you with a broad overview of Canada's approach to detainee issues in Afghanistan by highlighting some of the background to Canada's arrangement for the transfer of detainees, as well as by outlining the role of the International Committee of the Red Cross and the Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission.