Public Safety committee  I would add that factually you may say we've always had security certificates, and factually the United Kingdom government might say we've had the special immigration appeals commission since post-Chahal, since the European court gave the decision that gave rise to the court. But it's not just the human rights organizations and the minority groups organizations who see a clear difference post-9/11.

Public Safety committee  Thank you for asking that, actually, because it's very interesting. One of the members commented that security certificates are used in Europe. In fact, returns, under the immigration laws, yes, are made in Europe, and in France there have been a number of them. You may have heard of radical Islamist imams preaching certain things in certain mosques having vulnerable immigration status and being deported, and then in some of those instances, even after having been deported, lodging an appeal in either a French court or, for example, with the Committee against Torture or with the European Court of Human Rights.

Public Safety committee  This also is in response--I'm sorry, I don't know your name--to your prior question about full disclosure. There was a recent case in the special immigration appeals commission that should be of great interest to all of you, because not only was the person subject to the proceeding before the SIAC not permitted any access--except a very brief summary--to the evidence against him on the national security case, he also did not have access to any of the evidence against him on the risk assessment case.

Public Safety committee  Our experience with security certificates, as I said, began in 2005, with the security certificate five. Those returns would be made to Morocco, Syria, and Egypt. We've done quite a bit of research on each one of those individual cases. Every case where there's an issue of the non-refoulement obligation arising is assessed on a case-by-case basis.

Public Safety committee  Human Rights Watch's official position, whether in the case of Guantanamo Bay or of people left for years in detention up here in Canada under security certificates, is to prosecute or release. Prosecution is the primary mode for accountability of any person who is suspected of a crime related to terrorism.

Public Safety committee  I really would simply endorse the same. It doesn't matter which of the special advocates you would select as your own special advocate. The limitations upon the advocate's ability to actually represent you in an attorney-client relationship and to share evidence with you that may be of crucial importance to your exoneration obtains, no matter what.

Public Safety committee  Right. In general, I would point the committee to a very recently released--November 27--general comment, only the second in history by the Committee against Torture. The Committee against Torture categorically includes within that prohibition ill treatment, because prison conditions and conditions of detention very often are categorized as ill treatment as opposed to torture.

Public Safety committee  Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thanks as well to the entire committee for giving Human Rights Watch this opportunity to appear today. I understand the committee is in the process of considering hearing additional witnesses, and of course we welcome that as well. I'd like to just say, as a point of beginning, that Human Rights Watch endorses Amnesty International's basic concerns with Bill C-3, but I'd like to take you back a couple of years to Human Rights Watch's first foray into advocacy around security certificates.