Public Safety committee  No, certainly not. We would share concerns with respect to all of those points.

Public Safety committee  Our focus isn't so much on the issue of training. It's clearly the individual who already chooses their own lawyer, and in proceedings, individuals do have representation. As we all know, there's a group of lawyers in Canada who have developed considerable expertise and specialization in national security cases in an immigration context, so individuals concerned are probably most likely going to look to that group and emerging lawyers who continue to develop expertise.

Public Safety committee  Undoubtedly, there would be individual cases in which there would be a tussle between the individual's choice of counsel and the ability to get security cleared. There may even be instances in which security clearance ultimately is not possible, and the person concerned would then have to choose another counsel, again of their choice, but we would hope those instances would be limited.

Public Safety committee  I think it is important that Bill C-3 is focusing on one particular aspect of how security plays out in the immigration system. There are various other ways, proceedings, and procedures wherein this plays out and wherein a lot of these same concerns about secrecy and adequate representation arise.

Public Safety committee  I'll just be very brief, because I'm sure your time is short. I think it's really crucial around this issue of profiling to remember that there is reality and there is perception and that both are things that as legislators, as advocates, as a society we need to be very sensitive to and concerned about.

Public Safety committee  I don't think the court actually pronounced on what model is necessary. I think they referred to things like the special advocate model and SIRC as illustrations of the fact that there are less rights-violating alternatives open to the government, such that the arguments that this didn't violate the charter were dismissed.

Public Safety committee  So I think with respect to special advocates, while, yes, it's true that they acknowledge the existence of it and pointed to that as something that would be better than the existing system, they did also acknowledge, without pronouncing on this at all, that there is criticism of that process as well.

Public Safety committee  They didn't rule it out. I would think, though, as legislators trying to come up with a system that's going to be strong and withstand the inevitable challenges that will come in the courts, the fact that the U.K. model has been so widely and so publicly criticized by a range not just of radical advocacy groups but mainstream organizations, by Parliament, by special advocates themselves, obviously means there's a very powerful evidentiary record out there that will be put in front of courts, and that, I would submit to you, increases the chances that this proposal, too, will fall under charter challenges.

Public Safety committee  Sure. Thank you. With respect to your first question, I agree that there's a matter of balance there. We are concerned that there's nothing in the legislation with respect to signalling, even in a high-level sense, the importance of some of the criteria or the kinds of background or expertise special advocates should possess.

Public Safety committee  With respect to the criticism in the United Kingdom, which is really what I was referring to, it wasn't so much the notion of a security certificate as the idea of a special advocate and their role in that process. That's where our particular concern lies. We do not feel that the special advocate model proposed, and a special advocate model even with some enhancements, will be sufficient to ensure that an individual's fair trial rights and the ability to mount an effective defence are truly safeguarded.

Public Safety committee  Could I just say that I think we probably all have slightly different perspectives and things we would want to say about the relationship between immigration and criminal law in this area. Amnesty International has never said there is not a role for immigration law, including in dealing with national security cases.

Citizenship and Immigration committee  Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I certainly welcome the opportunity to be here today. It is fitting, and I suppose tragically and ironically so, that we are here on the day following International Human Rights Day, which yesterday marked the 59th anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Citizenship and Immigration committee  Indeed, it's very important to remind us that while Syria and Jordan are obviously bearing the burden, and the toll on those two countries is immense and the needs are extremely critical, there are other countries in the region that are bearing the brunt as well. Lebanon, I think, is one that is starting to receive a greater amount of attention now.

Citizenship and Immigration committee  I would only agree with you. The complexity you've described is absolutely correct. Certainly, the preoccupation of the international community now and the situation in Iran is perhaps distracting, especially at high political levels, from the kind of focused attention that should be given to dealing with the plight of Iraqi refugees.

Citizenship and Immigration committee  I think it's a powerful reminder of what Canada is capable of. The numbers were remarkable at their peak: something in the range of 3,000 refugees per month were coming into Canada. In a span of about just 12 months, in 1979 and into 1980, about 50,000 Indochinese refugees arrived in Canada.