Finance committee  I would just add to the quid pro quo side of the equation that it's not all a case of just giving to the corporation and giving nothing to the pensioners or beneficiaries of the plans. As my colleague has just commented, we advocate things such as, let's do an annual evaluation every year.

Finance committee  No, I was just expressing what the membership had told us in the survey. I cannot give you a definitive answer as to why. Those are clearly their views, and that's what we were able to obtain through the survey.

Finance committee  I go back to my initial comment, which we've been pretty consistent with. It is that the best security, whether it's a pensioner or a plan participant who is going to retire at some point in time, is a financially strong and viable plan sponsor. At the end of the day, if funds are being diverted from keeping those companies viable and are being put into pension funds, thereby crippling the sponsoring institution, it's not going to be to the benefit of anyone.

Finance committee  I can't say I can speak on behalf of the pensioners, but I would say to you there is an inherent flaw in the way the calculation of that funding requirement is done today. When you look at trying to assess at a point in time what we call a marked-to-market rate for liabilities going out 10, 20, or 30 years into the future, you're unjustly penalizing the funding of that plan immediately—for the plans that go out for a long period of time.

Finance committee  I think the banks have had quite readily accessible capital in the capital markets themselves. You can see that all of the Canadian banks have been issuing preferred shares. They have been issuing the tier 1 capital through the capital trust notes that have been going out, and they've been issuing it in size, and with very good yield for investors.

Finance committee  I would start by commending the Canadian banking system for what we have. The example we've been able to make on the world scene deserves great accolades. When we look across the world, there's not a single banking system that, like ours, hasn't had to get aid or become wards of the state.

Finance committee  I would say it's a couple of things. One is that the Canadian banks clearly have the key relationships with the major Canadian companies here, and since banks work from all kinds of ancillary businesses, the foreign banks are in a secondary position. I would also say that they depend on their financing coming from their home countries.

Finance committee  I would comment that our group, as well as many other groups who have been in front of Mr. Menzies in the last little while—and those likely to come—are of the firm belief that the best protection and safety for any pensioner or any member of a pension plan, particularly a defined benefit plan, is the financial viability of its sponsor.

Finance committee  Let me respond a little bit to that. A lot of what the BDC does is loans to smaller businesses. Part of their mandate, obviously, is to put money into start-ups and new organizations, particularly the knowledge-based businesses. It's not uncommon in times like these, in heavy recessionary times, that they retrench a little bit.

Finance committee  That's exactly the point we're making. We believe they have to be doing that, and they have to be doing it on a much more rapid basis. It's not happening.

Finance committee  It isn't happening. We're not seeing it.