Canadian Heritage committee  What we're trying to get across today is that we're doing everything we can. To Mr. Angus's point, we understand the splintered nature of new media and how many ways kids consume music. We are doing the deals to get into all those avenues. But while the tap with all the music created in the world is open to these sites, our deals are not able to make the impact they could make.

Canadian Heritage committee  I think what's very interesting to see so far is that in our building we have people from very diverse backgrounds. We are starting to specifically hire tech-savvy people who really focus on new media. We have about 20 people at our company who focus specifically on new media. They are educated in that space.

Canadian Heritage committee  I have an example to respond to your question as well, Mr. Simms. As part of our efforts to understand what fans want, we bring groups of high school kids in to talk to us a couple of times a year just to hear what they're doing. To Graham's point about how they know it's wrong, I think they believe they're allowed to do it.

Canadian Heritage committee  I think as part of what you say, some of these actions have come out of frustration with the legal environment. I think we are coming here speaking as business people. We are trying to build an environment in which we have a chance to build something that people want to come to.

Canadian Heritage committee  That's very much our focus.

Canadian Heritage committee  My name is Darlene Gilliland. I am the director of digital business development for Universal Music Canada. I am very grateful to the committee for the opportunity to speak to you today. I plan to cover three topics: who Universal is and how we engage with the opportunities that new media presents to grow our business in Canada; how the challenges presented by the lack of a predictable, rules-based climate for investment in new media limit the growth of that business; and how government can help.