Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  To add very briefly to John's suggestions, I think there is a vibrant civil society within Venezuela and within the entire hemisphere. FOCAL works with a network of different organizations, including some Venezuelan organizations, but these are the issues we deal with on a daily basis, in all of the countries, not just in Venezuela.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  There is no reason that social programs cannot be promoted alongside changes within the governance system to solidify governance. In fact, if that process is not undertaken, I don't think many of the social programs will be sustained. It could be that a government that comes into power following Chavez sees the benefit of these programs, because I do think many of these programs have benefited the people.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  I agree about the need for balance. You said we should not refuse to meet with the Venezuelans, and I don't know whether that has occurred in the past. I worked at the Embassy of Canada in Caracas on a nine-month contract while I was in Venezuela. I know from my experience that there is great effort to try to work with the Venezuelans.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  Yes, people do carry around their constitutions and people regularly refer to their constitutional rights. It's quite impressive. People seem to be well informed about those rights, and I agree that a number of people who were living in poverty now have greater access. They have greater access to education.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  I would, actually. I think it's very important not to look at the debate as either you can have social and economic gains or you can have governance. Without the establishment of systems, of a foundation of governing institutions that will continue beyond one government, any of the gains that Chavez has seen in the social arena are likely to be lost--that is to say, they won't be continued.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  In relation to your first question on how effective the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights has been, the government has spoken out and stated that the Inter-American Commission does not have the jurisdiction to overrule any previous rulings that have been made in the Venezuelan court system.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  As far as I can read from the information that I've been given, it was the decision of the NGO to return the money rather than face any possible consequences as a result of the law.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  Thank you. For those of you who are unfamiliar with our organization, FOCAL is an independent, non-partisan think tank dedicated to strengthening Canadian relations with Latin America and the Caribbean through policy dialogue and analysis. By providing key stakeholders with solution-oriented research on social policy and economic and political issues, we strive to create new partnerships and policy options throughout the western hemisphere.