Human Resources committee  I think it would be incredibly difficult just for a simple social impact bond by the Peterborough project, which involved trying to reduce recidivism among people who had been released from short sentences. You have so many different factors that can impact it. If you happen to have a social impact bond project to reduce recidivism that starts up just after there's been a major downturn in the economy, then obviously it's going to be harder for people coming out of prison to find work.

Human Resources committee  I think we are probably operating under very different definitions of social finance. The definition of social finance that both Ms. Young and I have come here with, and that I think is widely understood, is that people accept a reduced return on their investment—and I've used the phrase “reduced return” with the deepest respect a number of times in my presentation—in exchange for accomplishing a social good.

Human Resources committee  I tend to agree that in terms of employment through programs to create jobs through economic development, social finance is probably a lot more effective than other measures that have been used. Where I would be very leery is where you're using social finance to fund public services.

Human Resources committee  I, at least, and I think Margot as well, am very specifically focusing on the problems with using social finance for public services. As mentioned, social finance for community economic development has a lot of potential.

Human Resources committee  As mentioned, for community economic development there's a lot of potential. On the idea of something to encourage people to invest in a business that hires people with disabilities, an example comes to mind from Manitoba, where there is a business that specializes in installing geothermal heating systems on reserves to help people living on reserves reduce costs, but it's also providing skills training to people living on the reserves.

Human Resources committee  Yes, definitely. In community economic development, social finance has a substantial role to play. I'll give one small example from my own neighbourhood. A local coffee shop decided that it wanted to create a coffee-roasting facility. They engaged in what could be described as and what would fall under social finance to pay for it.

Human Resources committee  I did not bring the exact details because I took it to be universally understood. However, I think we're arguing about interpretation. I'd be happy to provide the information through the clerk, but I seem to recall some dispute between the provinces and the federal government over skills training money that was being redirected.

Human Resources committee  Certainly. The experience for our members, when other privatization schemes have been introduced, is that they don't know what level of service the private contractor is necessarily meant to be providing without the contract being made public. We also don't know how much we're paying for it.

Human Resources committee  I was very specific, and that is that your government chose to redirect the funds, as governments can choose to do. It meant that some of the money was taken out of funding that had been given to provincial governments.

Human Resources committee  Where social impact bonds have been proposed is in areas where there have been significant cuts to public funding. Public services are closed down and then social impact bonds are put forward to take their place. You see private finance replacing publicly offered services. The first social impact bond in Saskatoon was for support for single mothers.

Human Resources committee  Essentially it's the fact that the people investing in social finance do need to make a profit. They need to meet targets to get payment on their investment. With that in mind, it's understandable that even if you're willing to accept a lower rate of return, you do have to make some profit.

Human Resources committee  Thank you very much for the opportunity to speak to the committee today. The National Union of Public and General Employees is a family of 11 component unions in every province except Quebec. NUPGE represents 340,000 people in nine provinces. Our members work in the public sector, the non-profit sector, and private sectors.