Public Safety committee  Yes, I'll give you an example. Just two weeks ago, I was called by an individual in an institution because, having done this for years, I know many of the staff as well as many of the prisoners. This is an example of what could have evolved into a very different type of emergent situation.

Public Safety committee  I actually do think they can work.

Public Safety committee  I'll back up. Part of the reason Louise Arbour recommended that the women be used as the flagship for corrections is exactly what you've pointed to, which is that we could be doing many more progressive things that in our experience would also then benefit the men. Healing lodges are a perfect example.

Public Safety committee  If you start with separation, you actually build friction. In terms of any institution that has worked at this, Ms. Mendelsohn talked about some of the U.K. system and I was involved in some of the U.K. reforms that looked at removing segregation and removing maximum security types of settings and using more dynamic security.

Public Safety committee  For me, no, because I'm familiar with how those mechanisms are being used right now. If there have been no meaningful consultations to this point on this process, then I would not have faith that those mechanisms would be put in place within the prison setting without external push.

Public Safety committee  Right now, it's considered independent when the mental health advocates come in. When I contacted them in Saskatchewan, they hadn't been receiving calls at all. The commencement of committal proceedings would start once the person was forcibly medicated or injected, as the case would be, and then they would abandon the proceedings, which meant that the mental health advocate was never called in.

Public Safety committee  Even more stringently than that, those judges made those decisions without going into the units. In the visits we've been doing with the human rights committee, as we've gone into the maximum security units, every senator has recognized them as segregated conditions, without any of us saying it.

Public Safety committee  We certainly have seen a difference in the language that's coming out. For instance, in our visits to the institutions and in our meetings with senior managers and any witnesses who come from national headquarters and regional headquarters, the language sounds much more progressive than we've heard for some time.

Public Safety committee  Certainly the teacher in me says that you have to repeat it at least 29 times before it starts to penetrate. The difficulty is, though, that if there was a real willingness, then many of us would have been involved in that process. Unfortunately, it looks to be a more cynical process if in fact you don't take the next step and actually engage those individuals who have, as I do, a huge investment in wanting to make this work.

Public Safety committee  I would agree. I've provided charts; I haven't done the submission in the usual form, but I thought it might be useful for the committee. I have them in French and English and I'm happy to circulate them so that you can actually see what the current legislation is, what's been proposed, and the commentary.

Public Safety committee  That's correct.

Public Safety committee  That's what it is currently, yes, for women.

Public Safety committee  No, this was last year. I asked for an update in 2018. This is the update.

Public Safety committee  I can't speak for the minister. I do know that one of the issues the Parliamentary Budget Officer raised when I asked for the updated costs was that they could not estimate what it would cost for maximum security for women. They're all in these segregated units, which are basically what the structured living environments would be.

Public Safety committee  Well, in fact, if it's an institution run by an indigenous community, they are consulted. They are the decision-makers. If it's a federal penitentiary, then I think it should be the decision-making of the Correctional Service of Canada. I think the manner in which the federal penitentiary for women that was set up on the Nekaneet reserve—it sounds like you're referring to that one, so let's get right to that—