Industry committee  I fully agree after 40 years of trying. We learned 15 years ago that you can create a small superpriority for wages and create a wage earner protection plan. Why can't we do the same sort of thing for pensions as a start? The world didn't fall apart because we created a superpriority for wages.

Industry committee  Yes, that's true. Many have hybrid plans where they create defined contribution benefits going forward. In fact, that's what Nortel did during the last seven or eight years of its existence, but the vast majority of their liabilities were defined benefit ones.

Industry committee  I believe, frankly, that they are not cognizant of what we have in this country. Pension plans are already very strictly regulated. Valuations can be required more often than every three years if there are problems. We have pension regulators in this country in all provinces that try to make sure that pension plans are properly funded.

Industry committee  I would say that horse left the barn three decades ago. Most new pension plans are defined contribution arrangements or a group RRSP. The problem is that you have hundreds of thousands of people, if not a million people, in private sector defined benefit plans in this country. This is the regime that we have.

Industry committee  Thank you very much, Madam Chair. It's good to be with you this morning. I've been involved in this area for 40 years as a practitioner in a firm that represents exclusively pensioners, retirees, workers, insolvencies and of course other matters. In that time we've had some major cases and some major developments, but still we have a real problem with the protection of pensioners and disabled people, particularly in insolvencies.