Justice committee  I just want to jump in and clarify one thing. Ms. McPherson is 100% correct. None of these activities is prohibited. Humanitarian assistance, development assistance and all of that can continue and should. The law against terrorist financing remains in place. Channelling funds to a terrorist organization will always be illegal.

Justice committee  The government is not the one requiring them to seek a licence. We're providing this as an opportunity to allow them to continue operating in an area where they may encounter liability. They would need to make that decision, and they would need to seek independent legal advice. We can't provide legal advice, and we're not requiring organizations to seek this licence.

Justice committee  You're quite correct. The legislation has not yet been passed. We certainly hope to be able to provide some guidance in its applicability. We need to see how this is going to play out. I'd like to point out that one of the challenges in restricting this applicability to just organizations that are listed means there is no protection from liability if you are engaging with an organization that, for a variety of reasons, can't be listed under the Canadian Criminal Code, and there are some organizations out there.

Justice committee  Right. I think what we're doing here is constructing this as broadly and as flexibly as we can, so that we can respond to those sorts of evolving situations. Organizations bear a certain amount of responsibility for where they operate. I think we can all agree that's sensible. We're encouraging organizations to operate internationally where they can handle themselves.

Justice committee  Yes, that organization plays a role in it and will be consulted. Furthermore, I'd like to highlight that regulations are not normally part of the bill. It's another layer of activity. It is therefore completely normal for it to be worked out after passage of the bill.

Justice committee  We are working on it.

Justice committee  My view is that it would limit the legislation. A humanitarian carve-out prevents different kinds of activities that we want to make sure would be covered, so I think it would be unlikely, but again, that's not my decision. My view is that the shape we've given to the proposal in front of you provides the most flexibility and prevents us from having to come back to this table a few years down the line when the situation evolves to redo the amendment.

Justice committee  I guess that speed being provided to humanitarian organizations is what we hope is already contained. It does not change anything if we include broader categories.

Justice committee  I would ask, why not have the other categories?

Justice committee  I guess my quick answer to that would be that we work together all the time. The Government of Canada operates through a series of interdepartmental committees. They help us to bring the expertise that we need to the table, when necessary, and to provide evidence-based and informed information up to ministers, who make decisions.

Justice committee  I want to say that, first of all, that's completely normal. All projects supported by Global Affairs Canada must meet those criteria. The capacity to administer funds and report on them is a completely normal criteria. Nothing has changed. In the case of other criteria, Public Safety Canada will conduct a follow‑up.

Justice committee  In the application process, applications are presented to the Government of Canada. Depending on the nature of the activity that they're requesting an authorization for, it would be deferred to Global Affairs in the first instance, or to IRCC if it is about safe passage. The reason is that Global Affairs and IRCC are better able to assess the preparedness of the organization and the validity of the application.

Justice committee  Well, right, and with all due respect, we have continued to provide humanitarian assistance throughout.... I will defer to my Justice colleagues on whether or not this matches international law. What this provides is an enabling function for Canadian organizations, to allow them to operate where otherwise they would violate the Canadian Criminal Code.

Justice committee  I'd like to start by saying that you raised excellent points. You already know that; I don't have to say it. We share those concerns, and the way this has been designed so far, I hope, addresses a lot of these things. I'll take one at a time. On the issue about publishing a list of terrorist-controlled organizations, obviously, from a diplomatic perspective, that's incredibly difficult to do.

Justice committee  We're asking them to seek protection from criminal liability from the Canadian Criminal Code, and that's the other point that I'd like to raise. You mentioned that there's already protection that exists under international law. As far as humanitarian assistance is concerned and as far as UN international law is concerned, the Canadian Criminal Code—and we can't get around this—criminalizes any activity that might provide a benefit to a terrorist organization—