Information & Ethics committee  We don't know where it's coming from because my understanding is that.... It's interesting. The discussion in the U.S. after that young gamer leaked all that information was that there are thousands, if not more, of top secret clearances in the United States. I don't know how many top secret clearances there are in Canada, but they're not just in CSIS.

Information & Ethics committee  After 9/11, I was at the Department of Justice when we did the anti-terrorism legislation. I know that there was a concern that there would be—and there was, in fact—a backlash against people of Middle Eastern origin and other minority groups, just as I think there's been a backlash against people of Asian origin, starting with the pandemic because of the suspected origins of it.

Information & Ethics committee  I assume that I can provide these electronically.

Information & Ethics committee  I think an independent public inquiry is a reasonable option. There are other reasonable options as well. I would hope that, if there is an independent public inquiry, it finds a way of making sure that not everything is happening in secret. Because there's an awful lot of security information that will never get into the public, the public part of the inquiry might be very much in question.

Information & Ethics committee  No.

Information & Ethics committee  Yes, so that.... Yes, I just got a look at that. I'm sorry about that.

Information & Ethics committee  First of all, I apologize. I didn't look at the whole list of attendees. I didn't mean to mislead anybody on that. Second, this was an initiating meeting. This was not about the donation. At this point, they were talking about a donation to the Université de Montréal and to other universities in Canada.

Information & Ethics committee  I don't have any. I met Justin Trudeau for about 15 seconds at a cabinet retreat. I was one of the deputy ministers who gave a briefing to members of the new cabinet on relations with—

Information & Ethics committee  I know him much better, because he was a member of the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation board of directors when I was working there.

Information & Ethics committee  I don't know, but for myself, no. During my career in government, I always gave my opinions to the best of my knowledge and I always acted independently. That is the spirit in which I held my office at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation.

Information & Ethics committee  The only thing I can say is that I have always tried to stay independent. I can't change the perception of people who don't want to believe me, unfortunately. I have never acted in bad faith, and I have always acted in the best interests of the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation.

Information & Ethics committee  I think every country has followed a gradual path, but things changed suddenly for Canada in about 2018 or 2019.

Information & Ethics committee  The one I want to go back to is CSIS uncovering a Chinese plan to donate to the Trudeau Foundation. This appeared in the Globe on February 28 of this year. It was based on an anonymous source, apparently not based on a document. This is intelligence. Intelligence is different from evidence, and I'm going to tell you something some of you may have heard from David Morrison.

Information & Ethics committee  That's correct.

Information & Ethics committee  I assume that when the Government of Canada acts, it's in the interests of the Government of Canada.