Foreign Affairs committee  That's an excellent question because it also speaks to the timing of the sanctions. In order for sanctions to be unpredictable, they have to happen quite quickly so as to take the other side by surprise. Something I've thought about—I haven't seen it implemented anywhere—is whether there could be a consultative body composed of the government and parliamentary representatives of all factions in a given Parliament.

Foreign Affairs committee  That's an excellent point, and that's why I think sanctions against the children of officials, specifically children who are not involved in the aggressive actions themselves, should be limited to visa bans and travel bans. We should remember that visas aren't just anybody's right.

Foreign Affairs committee  Yes, I remember that evidence session. I'm delighted you brought up the Magnitsky sanctions. Again, if we look at where the Magnitsky sanctions have been applied to date, as we discussed in that previous evidence session, it's essentially mostly countries that are foes of the west.

Foreign Affairs committee  One reason the Russian government hasn't considered our western sanctions to be a particularly costly measure against it is that they were predictable. The Russian side could pretty easily figure out what the west would sanction once Russia invaded, and even before Russia invaded.

Foreign Affairs committee  That is a central question of how we can help rebuild Ukraine and establish some sort of functioning order at the same time. With regard to Russian state and private assets that have been frozen by the west, freezing assets is easy. It's part of the sanctions program. Assets being frozen doesn't have to imply criminality, whereas seizing assets can only be done when the authorities have established reasonable evidence of criminality.

Foreign Affairs committee  It's a dangerous juncture. I remember vividly that when Russia invaded, last year in February, I thought, “Well, does this mean now that western companies doing business in Russia will be punished?” It didn't take long for Russia to seize all those aircraft that were western-owned but leased to Russia, aircraft that happened to be in Russia.

Foreign Affairs committee  The cost-benefit analysis is most common on the side or in the country that is planning to do something that it knows other countries won't approve of. When it comes to countries imposing western sanctions, they too look at the cost-benefit analysis or conduct a cost-benefit analysis.

Foreign Affairs committee  Russia has officially responded to the collective western sanctions of which Canada is a key part by essentially shrugging its shoulders and saying, “You can try whatever it is you want to achieve. We'll just go ahead with our plans anyway.” This is a nightmare for diplomats, frankly.

Foreign Affairs committee  I hope I understood your question correctly. You'd like to know the effect of Canadian sanctions on capital flight as it relates to Canada's sanctions against Russia.

Foreign Affairs committee  The big advantage we have as liberal democracies is that we have a safe business environment where the rule of law prevails. As a result, we haven't seen a lot of flight of the kind that you brought up. We haven't seen a lot of that occur simply because we are very attractive as countries for businesses to operate in.

Foreign Affairs committee  They're willing to bear that punishment, whereas if we can design sanctions that target them individually as a deterrent, that may achieve more effect in a future sanctions package. Thank you, Chair.

Foreign Affairs committee  Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you to the committee for inviting me again to address the subject of sanctions. I think what is so important to recognize now in the year 2023, when we are assessing the effect of the western collective sanctions, is how different the environment is today compared to the last round when we applied sanctions, or, I should say, in the last generation when we applied sanctions.