Finance committee  I'd like to believe that is the case, but from my perspective, the figures and my experience say otherwise, that people are excluded. It's not an individual problem; it's a systemic problem. We have had studies in Nova Scotia, for example, where a person of colour will call and get a job interview, but as soon as they show up the job no longer exists.

Finance committee  Exactly.

Finance committee  Okay, thank you.

Finance committee  No.

Finance committee  Thank you. I'm looking at the figure of $13 billion against the debt, and, as Ian Johnson said, there is an alternative budget. The last one I looked at said, let's put $8 billion against the debt and let's look at social programs, health and education re: funding or funding new initiatives.

Finance committee  I'm used to massive topics. If I could make a comment about current social assistance programs, there's no question that they're inadequate financially. Before I went to the School of Social Work, I worked at the Dalhousie Legal Aid Service for twenty years. I used to teach a seminar on our current social assistance and previous social assistance systems.

Finance committee  I think that has happened. We're fully in support of dedicated transfers for the other social programs. There's no question that social programs for people in poverty are not popular politically; therefore, they're the most difficult for MPs to sell to their constituents. However, if we don't look at poverty in this country in a real and dedicated way--if I can say that--we are going to continue to see high rates of poverty among the groups I mentioned.

Finance committee  Good morning, and thank you for this opportunity. I'm going to talk about poverty. What I want to say first of all is that poverty is not an economic reality, although our market economy seems to require that 20%, plus or minus, of Canadian citizens live in poverty at any one time.