Canada-China Relations Committee on May 6th, 2024

[Feroz Mehdi]

No, not as yet, thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

All right. Very good.

Ms. Wang, you're next.

[Maya Wang]

I mentioned in my testimony at the beginning that we welcome Canada's ban on forced labour, but, as you have put it, it's not adequate.

We recommend two things.

One is that you adopt laws that have a prohibition against imports from Xinjiang, similar to the Uyghur Forced Labor Prevention Act in the U.S., because the forced labour that's taking place in Xinjiang is a region-wide, government-sponsored forced labour system.

The second thing is that we recommend that you pass a due diligence law that actually requires companies to take action to address human rights abuses in their supply chain in Xinjiang and elsewhere.

I think those two things would go towards what you just described as Canada taking an important step as a leader in protecting human rights at the intersection of trade, imports, business and human rights.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Ms. Tethong, what are your comments?

[Lhadon Tethong]

I think I'll go a little more to a broader approach here. I think that what we need on the one hand is a much more public approach, speaking to these issues of human rights abuses, speaking to all of this more clearly, more publicly, and not being afraid to address these directly because it might upset Xi Jinping or offend the Chinese Communist Party leaders or whoever it is we're dealing with.

I think there are lots of good tactics and tools being rolled out and talked about, but I do think that overall—and I see this everywhere—there's this belief that we need to tiptoe around the CCP in all of our talk on human rights. I guess I would say that the Chinese government can read us pretty clearly, and they know that some of the measures and initiatives that our governments take are not as robust as they could be. At the same time, I think they know that if they threaten to huff and puff and blow the house down, we all shrink back in fear.

I think the issue of human rights should be one that's public, with no more private backroom bilateral dialogues but public pressure, public discussion. We should lead by example and signal to the Chinese people, to Tibetans and to everyone who's watching from the other side—and they do see and hear what's happening outside—that we're serious about it and that we're not afraid. They don't want us to be afraid of Xi Jinping and the rest. We need to be bolder in our approach and more public with all of it too.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you for that.

Ms. McPherson, you have six minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all of the witnesses for being here and sharing this important testimony with us.

You know, I'm struck by all of your testimony. I don't think there's anyone in this room who doesn't agree that the human rights abuses we are seeing in both India and China are dire, and that there needs to be more done. Where I struggle is to know what we can do as Canadian parliamentarians, what those concrete pieces are that can be done.

Based on your testimony, I have some questions for each of you that I'd like to start with. I think what I'll do is perhaps start with you, Ms. Wang.

You spoke about forced labour and the forced labour legislation that Canada has. To be perfectly honest, from my perspective, we do not, in fact, have forced labour legislation. Bill S-211 was a bill brought forward that basically says corporations or companies have to tell us if they think there is forced labour within their supply chains, but there are no implications on that. There is nothing that has to be done to stop that from happening, so I do think there is some real need for us to strengthen that.

We also have an ombudsperson. I've spoken many times about the toothless ombudsperson, the CORE ombudsperson, who does not have the ability to compel testimony or witnesses and is not able to do the job that the office needs to do or the job that the office was promised when this particular government put that office in place.

You spoke about the fact that we've prioritized economic development and security over human rights. I'm wondering, though, what concrete steps Canada could take that China would actually see and listen to. We have called out the Uyghur genocide within this Parliament. We have written about what's happening in Tibet within this committee. We have done these studies, and we have spoken quite strongly. If you could, please give me a concrete thing that this Parliament or this government could do that China would hear and that would cause the PRC to actually listen to us. I know you brought up monitoring, harassment and whatnot. What's the one thing you'd like us to be taking action on?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Would you like to direct your question?

Is somebody going to volunteer to go first?

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

It was for Ms. Wang.

[Maya Wang]

Thank you.

I think I was definitely being polite with the forced labour ban quote.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

You don't have to be polite in this committee. We're okay. We can take it.

[Maya Wang]

Okay. I do think there are other governments that would do less, unfortunately, so we duly recognize some of the efforts, however little they are at the beginning. We ask for them to be more.

Basically, with the Chinese government, I don't think we are asking for a silver bullet. I doubt there is one. We are building many different pieces together. That changes the narrative of how the Chinese government is being treated and discussed.

Lhadon talked about how, suddenly, when it comes to China, everybody shakes in fear. I think that kind of feeling of shaking in fear has begun to diminish a bit. I think more governments are willing to confront the Chinese government, but confronting means, for example, mainstreaming human rights. We are talking about human rights in a human rights hearing; however, often we are in this place rather than talking with people who are talking about national security. If you look at the spending on national security and the spending on human rights, you see how much these issues matter to governments.

It's mainstreaming human rights, making sure human rights are raised at the highest level. We often see, when governments go to talk with the Chinese government, that human rights are mentioned in some kind of separate human rights dialogue rather than when the top leaders are going to talk with Xi Jinping and mentioning that front and centre. Those are things—along with laws being changed on forced labour—that would have an impact.

Now, if you ask me one thing you should do tomorrow, I would still consider crimes against humanity as a very important one to focus on, I think, with time passing, especially.

This is going to sound somewhat unsatisfactory, for example, with crimes against humanity. At the United Nations, the UN high commissioner came out with a report saying that there may be crimes against humanity. They documented lots of the violations that took place, much as Human Rights Watch did in 2022, two years ago. That was the previous high commissioner. The current high commissioner has not briefed the council about the report, has not spoken in follow-up to the report. This is because the high commissioner fears the Chinese government.

Canada could take the lead at the Human Rights Council to press the high commissioner, to say that we need to talk about this and we need to have a joint statement. I know this is a very low bar, but these are building blocks towards holding the Chinese government accountable.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I will try to get just one more question in.

Ms. Tethong, it's nice to see you. I'm sorry that I'm not there in person. It would be nice to see you in person again. It's lovely that you're back at our committee.

We spoke about the Human Rights Council and wanting to get them to hold China more accountable for the human rights abuses that are happening there, but we also see the PRC spreading influence within sub-Saharan Africa with the belt and road initiative. How does Canada push on that?

Bravery might not be the right term, but do you know what I mean? We want countries in sub-Saharan Africa, in other parts of the world, to be standing up and saying that what China is doing is wrong. It's very difficult to do that when China is the only one investing in infrastructure and development projects within those countries. How do we manage that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Ms. McPherson, you have just gone way over time. However, Ms. Tethong—

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I'm sorry. I will let Ms. Tethong think about it for my next one.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

—if you have a brief answer to provide, we'd really appreciate that. Thank you.

[Lhadon Tethong]

It's going to sound a little repetitive, but I think it is critical for all of the nations that are like-minded with Canada—the U.S., the U.K., Australia—to speak, and not just by taking action together in the UN but speaking individually, more clearly and directly with China, and publicly, so that other nations can see it, so that the Chinese people can see and hear it, and so that Tibetans can see and hear it.

Yes, I agree with Maya that there is a stronger approach in general now. I feel there is no other option at this point, and governments are far more willing to say something about transnational repression because it applies right at home, so it's really clear. However, I think we shouldn't shy away from the idea of talking about democracy, genocide potential, crimes again humanity and all of these things in really public, pressuring, painful ways. I think one of the biggest successes that the PRC has had over these past two to three decades is driving all of that conversation into the dark and out of the spotlight.

I see in so many ways that in Canada these discussions are happening, and it's excellent. They are much more public. However, from our leadership, the highest officials in the Canadian government—the Prime Minister, the foreign minister—we need to see really clear and strong language on all of this—human rights, Tibet, the Uyghur genocide—up front and not as a sidebar issue. It has to be core and integrated into the conversation every step along the way, with benchmarks and measures to hold the Chinese government accountable.

One of my colleagues says this best. He says that they are here because they need—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Excuse me, Ms. Tethong. We did need a shortish answer, and we got a longish answer.

[Lhadon Tethong]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

We do have to go on to our next questioner.

[Lhadon Tethong]

I apologize, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

That would be Ms. Lantsman.

You have five minutes.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Ms. Tethong, I'll let you continue that later, but I'm going to start with Ms. Wang.

Thanks for joining us, Ms. Wang.

Last year, the U.K. released its China policy. I know you looked at it. What works? What doesn't work? What should Canada adopt?

[Maya Wang]

Are you asking about the U.K.-China policy?

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Yes.