Canada-China Relations Committee on May 6th, 2024

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to all the witnesses, and thanks to Mr. Chong for his question; it was basically what I was going to ask around best practices of other countries. I find the answers interesting, because we are being asked to do something that every country, I think, is struggling with.

I want to take it to a next step and talk about the intersection of democracy, human rights, economic activity, international engagement and trade. Again, I guess we would go around the table to all three witnesses on this question.

Do you see democracy and democratic rights as equivalent to human rights and as a necessary precursor to human rights, or is it possible to have human rights in a non-democratic country?

That's not a leading question. I'm genuinely interested in whether or not you believe that human rights can be protected in a system that is not the same as a democratic Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Is there anybody you wish to start with?

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

We'll go in reverse order to the last one, just to be fair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

All right.

Ms. Tethong, you'll start.

[Lhadon Tethong]

No, I don't think that it's possible to have human rights protections and true respect for human rights in a non-democratic country.

I think that's what some of these authoritarian leaders.... The PRC government would want us all to believe that it's possible and that there's just a different culture or a different way of doing things that is somehow cultural, social and somewhat rooted in history, but I don't think that's true. I think that's a really good excuse and a quick way to try to shut people up.

We see the Chinese themselves, Tibetans.... Everywhere you look in these closed societies where there is no true democracy, people are calling for it and asking for it.

To think that in the Xi Jinping era, in the first protest in that COVID lockdown period, when the man put the banner on the bridge and openly said that they don't want a king—they want democracy and they want rights—

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

My time is limited, so I want to go to the next person.

[Lhadon Tethong]

That to me is the key. That's the answer.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Go ahead, Ms. Wang.

[Maya Wang]

I don't think I can improve on what Lhadon has said.

I think the Chinese government would say that they are perfect in protecting human rights. It's basically a lot of propaganda. We see around the world, from Lebanon to Sudan—

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

I know your opinion on that.

I'm asking whether or not you believe that it is possible to ever have human rights protected in a non-democratic country.

[Maya Wang]

No, I don't think so.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Mr. Mehdi is next.

[Feroz Mehdi]

This applies very well to India today. The Indian government calls itself the mother of democracy. As I have pointed out, it is not possible to have universal human rights when the real democracy...which India is not today. As many observers have written, in 2014 India became a de facto Hindu nation. In 2019, it became a de jure Hindu nation.

In 2024, we are already talking about making a change in the constitution, so that is where we're at right now.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Thank you.

I wanted to raise those points because I thought that's probably what you would say.

I want to draw it back to the Indo-Pacific strategy, which says it will “support efforts toward democracy, inclusivity, accountable governance and sustained economic growth, helping key countries in the region.”

Underneath the IPS and its value statements is the idea that we should be supporting the growth and emergence of democracy in those countries.

I want to ask you—and I have not even two minutes—if you have any thoughts on how best Canada can promote democracy. Could we move it to that one?

We can go to Ms. Wang to start.

[Maya Wang]

That's a very long-term vision, for China. At this moment, with Xi Jinping in power, we are going to have a very tough one inside China.

Nonetheless, I would start with making sure the Chinese government faces consequences for crimes against humanity. In the last two decades, we've seen that the Chinese government kept pushing that line, and it never gets enough push-back from other governments, so it can say that it can do whatever it wants, and here we are.

If it does not get held accountable for crimes against humanity, I fear to think what comes next.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Could you explain how that leads into democracy?

I'm not opposed to doing what you say, but if democracy is required for human rights, how does that lead to more democracy, in your logic?

[Maya Wang]

A government that is forced to be held accountable for something like crimes against humanity emboldens the people on the ground to think, “Wait, this isn't the way a government should behave.”

We already see these White Paper protests. We see an emergence of consciousness of feminism in China, which includes half of the population.

The Chinese government cannot put this kind of consciousness down forever. I expect that a strong, principled stance on human rights can have knock-on impacts. I'm not guaranteeing it, but I'm saying it's important for people to push for that over time. This is a longer-term struggle. You see the Chinese people doing that over generations.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you, Ms. Wang.

Before I go to Monsieur Bergeron, I want to make sure our guests on Zoom know where the translation is—unless they have really good French.

There's a little globe at the bottom of your screen, almost in the middle. If you click on that, you have your option of floor, English or French. You can make that adjustment if you want.

Monsieur Bergeron, you have six minutes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for being with us today, and for continuing to give us insight into the situation not only in China, but also as regards Canada's Indo-Pacific Strategy.

In 2023, Human Rights Watch posted the following statement on its website: Since 2017, the Chinese government has carried out a widespread and systematic attack against Uyghurs and Turkic Muslims in Xinjiang. It includes mass arbitrary detention, torture, enforced disappearances, mass surveillance, cultural and religious persecution, separation of families, forced labor, sexual violence, and violations of reproductive rights. Human Rights Watch in 2021 concluded that these violations constituted “crimes against humanity.”

In addition, a number of authorities, including the Parliament of Canada, have found that the situation literally amounts to genocide.

The United Nations Human Rights Committee released a report that is extremely troubling, as well.

Human Rights Watch also stated that authorities in Tibet have imposed severe restrictions on freedom of religion, expression, movement and assembly. Tibetans who speak out about this crackdown or, for instance, the phasing out of the Tibetan language in elementary education suffer reprisals. People are encouraged to report those who oppose the measures in any way. Simply contacting Tibetans in exile can lead to detention. That applies to Uyghurs, Kazakhs and Turkmen too.

According to Canada's Indo-Pacific Strategy, “Canada will continue to speak up for universal human rights, including those of Uyghurs, Tibetans and other religious and ethnic minorities.”

How is Canada doing that? One way is by not importing goods made with forced labour. Canada even intends to provide its trading partners with more technical assistance on that front. The strategy goes on to say that Canada will “provide greater technical assistance to Indo-Pacific trading partners to improve the enforcement of labour provisions, including on forced labour”.

So far, however, Canada hasn't exactly set a good example in that regard. A private member's bill was passed, and it merely seeks to establish a registry whereby companies self-report on forced labour. The government was supposed to come forward with much more binding legislation, and we are still waiting. What's more, the Canada Border Services Agency was given a single directive on preventing the importation and entry to Canada of goods produced by forced labour.

My question is very simple. These measures have so far proven ineffective, to say the least. How can Canada claim to be a world leader capable of providing greater technical assistance to its Indo-Pacific trading partners in order to improve the enforcement of forced labour provisions?

The question is for all three witnesses.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Which person would you like to start with, Monsieur Bergeron?

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

They can go in the same order in which they gave their opening remarks.

Mr. Mehdi can go first, Ms. Wang, second, and Ms. Tethong, third.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Mr. Mehdi, we can hear your comments first. Then we will go to Ms. Wang and Ms. Tethong.

[Feroz Mehdi]

Mr. Chair, I'll give it a little thought before I say something. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Mr. Mehdi, you're on mute now, sir. Did you have something to offer by way of an answer?