Evidence of meeting #117 for Canadian Heritage in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was point.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Geneviève Desjardins
Bennett Jensen  Director of Legal, Egale Canada
Justin E. Kingston  President, Fédération des associations de juristes d'expression française de common law inc.
Liane Roy  President, Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada
Jennifer Khor  Chair, Access to Justice subcommittee, The Canadian Bar Association
Ian Brodie  Professor, University of Calgary, As an Individual

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Taleeb Noormohamed Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC

No, and I understand that, Mr. Chair, but there were other witnesses we wanted to question. To selectively bring one witness back—and Ms. Ashton makes a very good point—to bring back one witness so that we then have one witness...and then what are we going to do with the rest of this meeting? Are we going to go to clause-by-clause consideration? I'm not sure. What is the plan for the rest of the meeting? Are we going to end the meeting after that round?

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Kevin Waugh

No. We have several guests here. We're going to hear them and then we'll go around.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Taleeb Noormohamed Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC

Okay. The question earlier was, “Do we have other witnesses?” The answer was no. I think that's where the confusion resides.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Kevin Waugh

Can we go through our witness list today? Starting with five minutes, it will be Egale Canada first.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Taleeb Noormohamed Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC

We do have other witnesses, then, just to be clear.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Kevin Waugh

Mr. Noormohamed, I have four groups in front of me, along with Mr. Brodie.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Taleeb Noormohamed Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC

Mr. Chair, the question that was asked earlier was, “What else do we have?” The answer Mr. Coteau got was, “That was it.”

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Kevin Waugh

We have them right in front of us. Can we go ahead and do our meeting?

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Taleeb Noormohamed Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC

If Ms. Ashton's point has been addressed and she's going to have an opportunity to find time for her witnesses, I think that's reasonable.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Kevin Waugh

Okay. We'll go ahead with today then, if you don't mind my chairing this.

Egale Canada is with....

Do you have your hand up? Okay. Go ahead, Ms. Thomas. I'm sorry.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

I'm sorry. Thank you. There's been quite a bit of drama around this table.

Look, I think the clerk made it really clear: Each party around this table gets a certain allocation of witnesses. Conservatives decided to bring one witness forward twice. That counts as two slots. If other parties wish to bring one witness forward for two slots, they are welcome to do the same. I'm not sure why there is such venom being exchanged at this table when those rules apply equally to all parties.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Kevin Waugh

Thank you, Ms. Thomas.

We move on. With us today—

I'm sorry; go ahead, Ms. Ashton. You have your hand up.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Niki Ashton NDP Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB

Yes, just quickly, if we're going to throw words around—and I am certainly not here for any of this—the word “venom”.... Quite honestly, this committee is quite something.

What I would say as the person who initially brought up this point of order is that this option was not made known to those of us who also didn't get to fully hear from our witnesses—recognizing that we have proportional time, obviously, given party status—and so while I appreciate that you're using your slot, my concern is that we also didn't hear from our witnesses—and in the case of the NDP, our main witness—fully as a result of the time change, which obviously impacts your witness. I stand by my concern and appreciate that you're using your slot again.

I certainly would appreciate that we not use words like “venom” to characterize legitimate points of order that people raise. My goodness, I believe we're above that.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Kevin Waugh

Thank you, Ms. Ashton.

You of course also know we have a meeting next Thursday to invite your people back, if you didn't get the one you wanted back here on Tuesday and Thursday.

Go ahead, Ms. Lattanzio.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Patricia Lattanzio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

May I suggest that next time, if we do get into the situation of adjourning a meeting because of a vote—obviously that cuts into the testimony of certain witnesses—can we perhaps have the clerk advise the parties as to whether or not they want to re-invite those same individuals for the subsequent meeting, or at another meeting, so that this does not happen again?

Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Kevin Waugh

We tried to extend the meeting. It was quite late, with Ms. Ashton asking questions. We had the room until six o'clock and then we had it until seven o'clock. We actually had the room until seven o'clock, but I hear what you're saying.

Mr. Serré, you had your hand up.

May 2nd, 2024 / 3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Marc Serré Liberal Nickel Belt, ON

Mr. Chair, I'm new to the committee, but I've been an MP for eight years, and I've never seen a witness come back and testify before a committee a second time without that committee's consent. The decision was made by the chair and by a party without discussing the matter with the other committee members.

I just want to say that there's usually more co-operation in informing committee members of procedural changes. It would be really good if we could ensure that there's dialogue among all the parties, Mr. Chair.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Kevin Waugh

Thank you.

We will get to our guests, who are all on video conference today.

We have, from Egale Canada, Mr. Bennet Jensen, director of legal.

We have, from the Fédération des associations de juristes d'expression française de common law inc., Justin Kingston, president, and Rénald Rémillard, director general.

We have, from the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada, Liane Roy, president. You're with us on video conference.

We have, from the Canadian Bar Association, Jennifer Khor, chair, access to justice subcommittee.

You have five minutes to give your opening statements.

Justin and Rénald, you both can go, but you have to share your time of five minutes.

Mr. Brodie, as we said, you've already made your five-minute statement. You will be available for questions and answers.

We'll start with Mr. Jensen from Egale Canada. You have five minutes to address the heritage committee here this afternoon.

Thank you.

3:50 p.m.

Bennett Jensen Director of Legal, Egale Canada

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, everyone.

My name is Bennett Jensen, I use he/him pronouns and I'm the director of legal for Egale Canada.

Egale is Canada's leading 2SLGBTQI organization. Founded in 1986, Egale has been at the forefront of advancing and defending the rights of 2SLGBTQI people since that time.

Particularly in the early years of the charter, the Court Challenges Program was essential in Egale's ability to obtain legal recognition of queer people. I appear today on behalf of Egale in support of Bill C-316.

I will be addressing three brief points. The first is the role of the Court Challenges Program to date, the second is the particular vulnerability of 2SLGBTQI people and the third is the need for a robust challenge function in a healthy democracy.

On my first point, as members of this committee likely know, section 15 of the charter does not expressly list sexual orientation as a prohibited ground of discrimination. This protection was obtained through the courts. The courts reasoned that sexual orientation was analogous in nature to the immutable characteristics protected under section 15, such as race and religion.

This recognition was achieved through litigation. Specifically, the Court Challenges Program provided funding for Egale's interventions in landmark cases such as Rosenberg and Canada, Egan and Canada, and M. and H., which led to the recognition of same-sex relationships and specifically the conclusion that section 15 prohibited discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation, a finding that has enabled broader acceptance and dignity for queer people in Canada.

Currently at Egale, we are grateful to have received court challenges funding to pursue protection for the rights of another historically marginalized community: intersex people. Egale has initiated litigation challenging provisions of the Criminal Code that permit unnecessary surgeries to so-called normalize the appearance of intersex infants' genitals, in violation of their charter rights.

On my second point, the members of this committee will also appreciate that litigation is very expensive. For equity-denied groups, the very discrimination for which they require legal services is often a factor in their inability to afford those services, with 64.5% per cent of 2SLGBTQI people in Canada earning less than $40,000 a year. Discrimination in housing, employment and education contribute to higher poverty rates. Courts and human rights tribunals in this country have recognized that gender-diverse people in Canada in particular are in a unique position of disadvantage.

On my final point, in order for the charter to play its part in promoting equity and justice in Canada, those in minority communities must be able to access the courts to challenge the constitutionality of legislation passed by the majority. The Court Challenges Program is the vehicle that makes this more possible.

I note that this is a politically neutral position. The rights guaranteed by our charter apply to all.

When the legislative branch of the government fails to protect the charter rights of marginalized social groups, litigation is the avenue by which the government can be held accountable to its obligations. Without financial support for litigation, this avenue is closed to groups relying on charter claims to overcome systemic and systematic discrimination.

This is a crucial moment for gender-diverse people in particular. By “gender-diverse”, I mean two-spirit, trans, non-binary and gender-nonconforming people. As elected governments and major political parties take aim at the rights of gender-diverse people, particularly the rights of young people, it is essential that our communities are able to access the justice system.

As the Supreme Court of Canada recognized last year in Hansman and Neufeld, a core disadvantage facing gender-diverse people in Canada is the politicization and denial of legitimacy of trans identities and lives. This is precisely the kind of disadvantage that demands well-functioning checks and balances within our legal and political systems.

In conclusion, Egale strongly supports the strengthening of the Court Challenges Program through its entrenchment in legislation. This will help to counteract the financial difficulties faced by equity-denied communities, including ours, in asserting their charter rights before the courts and ensure that all of us benefit from the protections of our Constitution.

Thank you.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Kevin Waugh

Thank you, Mr. Jensen.

We'll move to Mr. Kingston and Mr. Rémillard.

You have five minutes. You can share your five minutes or one person can take the entire time. It's up to you.

Go ahead.

3:55 p.m.

Justin E. Kingston President, Fédération des associations de juristes d'expression française de common law inc.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My name is Justin Kingston, and I am the president of the Fédération des associations de juristes d'expression française de common law, or FAJEF. I am accompanied by Rénald Rémillard, who is the director general of FAJEF and is also appearing by video conference.

FAJEF's mission is to promote access to justice in French in the majority anglophone provinces and territories of Canada. FAJEF represents the associations of French-speaking lawyers of seven provinces: the four western provinces, plus Ontario, New Brunswick and Nova Scotia. Our members also include the francophone representative organizations of the three territories and Newfoundland and Labrador and Prince Edward Island. It is also a member of the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada, whose president is also attending today's meeting.

FAJEF unreservedly supports Bill C-316 for the following six reasons.

First, a court challenges program is essential in guaranteeing access to justice and honouring francophone minority language rights. Here are a few examples of the tangible consequences that have directly and indirectly resulted from various cases funded by the court challenges program over the years. French schools have been established in the three territories and in six provinces: Newfoundland and Labrador, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island, Saskatchewan, Alberta and British Columbia. There are 28 school boards and 740 schools—

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Kevin Waugh

I'm sorry. We're going to suspend for a second. I'm hearing that the people online are not getting the translation.

We're going to stop the clock here for you. You still have three and a half minutes. We'll pick it up in a moment. We're just hearing the floor language. We're not hearing the translation.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Kevin Waugh

We're back.

Proceed, if you don't mind, for three and a half minutes.

4 p.m.

President, Fédération des associations de juristes d'expression française de common law inc.

Justin E. Kingston

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The courts have recognized the right to manage minority language schools, and that has led to the creation of many francophone school boards in the provinces and territories outside Quebec. The courts have also acknowledged the principle of broad and liberal interpretation of constitutional and legislative language rights.

That's the first reason.

Second, in the next few years, the court challenges program will be essential in guaranteeing full implementation of the new provisions of Canada's Official Languages Act, a quasi-constitutional statute that was modernized in 2023 and that has been supported by all political parties. Since there are inevitable ambiguities in the modernized Official Languages Act, it will sooner or later be challenged in the courts. Litigation to determine the scope of the act is fundamental because, in a democratic society, the legislator legislates and judges, who enjoy judicial independence, interpret the scope of the statutes.

Third, in a collective law context such as that of language rights, it is intolerable that an individual should be compelled to bear the often significant monetary costs involved, sometimes running into the hundreds of thousands of dollars, to defend a necessarily collective right. Public funding is essential in the circumstances.

Fourth, anglophone Canadians who live in provinces and territories where their language is the majority language enjoy, perhaps unconsciously, the protection that a majority in a democratic system affords. This is the invisible benefit of the weight of numbers. Conversely, the absence of such a weight undermines the language rights of francophones living in minority communities. The court challenges program thus reduces the legal and monetary risks for francophones in minority communities. There are simply no such risks for members of the linguistic majority.

Fifth, the fact that the court challenges program promotes language rights in Canada, particularly in education, also has positive economic consequences because it promotes francophone mobility in Canada. For example, if there is a French-language school in an anglophone majority region, it's much easier for a francophone family immigrating or coming from elsewhere in Canada to move there.

Sixth, the very existence of the court challenges program may have a deterrent effect on any government that might wish to attack francophone minority language rights. By granting minorities access to monetary resources for the purpose of court challenges, the government guarantees that deterrent effect, which is not negligible. Furthermore, the court challenges program guarantees communities, francophone communities in particular, access to a minimum level of legal resources with which to affirm their language rights before the courts and to defend themselves against government organizations that enjoy far greater monetary resources.

Thank you.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Kevin Waugh

Thank you, Mr. Kingston.

We'll go now to the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada. Liane Roy is the president.

Liane, you have five minutes, please.