Bill C-15 (Historical)

Criminal Law Amendment Act, 2001

An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to amend other Acts

Criminal Law Amendment Act, 2001

[Ken Epp, Canadian Alliance, Elk Island, AB]

He noticed just by looking at me sideways. One of the items on the menu is a beautiful steak with all the side orders, the trimmings and everything. But I am told that I cannot have it unless I also eat the gravel that is sprinkled on top. Gravel is not very tasty and it chips my teeth, but I am told that I cannot have the steak unless I eat the gravel.

I have another example, and this one is going to be even more crude. This one is turkey with all the trimmings. We are coming up to Thanksgiving soon both in the United States and Canada. What a meaningful Thanksgiving it will be this year because of the recent incident. How grateful we are that we live in a country that has freedom, freedom of movement and freedom to live. But I am thinking of that turkey and in among the turkey are the feathers, because the feathers were not taken off the bird before it was cooked. I am told that I have to eat the feathers as well as that wonderful turkey that I like so much.

In all these different instances I am not given a choice. So it is here with this bill. I am being asked to either vote for these elements en masse or against them en masse.

The reason that it is so crass is I am sure that it is exactly along the lines of what I saw in the 1993 in the election.

One of my colleagues at that time, the member now for Edmonton North then from Beaver River, was running in the election. A brochure was sent out in her riding which listed all the things she had voted for or against. These were things that no doubt the people in that constituency either did or did not want. They used it for straight political reasons. In the midst of a vote, and this is almost always true, it is very seldom that we get a vote which we can support wholeheartedly.

When we have a bill like this, which has some things that are so objectionable, we cannot in conscience vote for it and represent our constituents. However, at the same time there is another element in that same bill that I could never vote against. How am I going to win?

I really think that perhaps the Speaker should intervene here. The Speaker should say that we need to guarantee the freedom of members of parliament to vote the way they believe their constituents would want them to vote.

Since this bill puts the members of parliament into such a dilemma, the Speaker should say that he will not accept the bill in its present form. Maybe the Speaker should say to the government that the bill should be divided and brought back for us to debate it, amend it and vote on it. Maybe that would be the solution. After all, the role of the Speaker is to ensure that the rights of parliamentarians are maintained.

I do not think that this means or any other means is an acceptable means to force me to vote opposite to the way I should on certain issues.

The Elections Act and the Parliament of Canada Act state, among other things, that if someone were to offer me money to try to persuade me to vote differently from what I might vote, it would be considered a high crime. This could result in both the person offering the money and the member of parliament, if he or she were stupid enough to accept the offer, landing in jail, and rightly so.

Why should the person who offers a bribe go to jail, when the government forces me to vote contrary to my beliefs and it does not go to jail? I would like to see all the Liberals in jail. We cannot do this to a person and maintain the integrity of parliament. Think about it. I do not think enough thought has gone into that.

That is by way of introduction to the particular bill. A few things really bother me about the bill, but some things I could probably support. For example, in our modern electronic age it is now possible very easily to transmit information electronically via computers, e-mail and the Internet. One thing in the bill, which I do not think has been mentioned in the debate so far, is that the bill permits the acceptance into evidence of electronically transmitted information. That is perfectly good. It is wonderful that we can communicate quickly and easily.

Another part of the bill is good. It provides that a witness or even an accused does not have to physically be in the court if, by some electronic conferencing means, it can be shown to the satisfaction of the court that all of them are able to see and hear each other simultaneously. That is a good move. It could save our country millions of dollars of costs in getting witnesses to court, as long as the courts are satisfied that there is no coercion and that all statements are freely made. I would vote for that because it is a good one.

I am sensitive to another part of the bill because of my past experience. Those who know me know will know what I am talking about. I have some affinity for people with handicaps because I had a sister who was severely handicapped. There are provisions in the bill that make it easier for them to testify, either as an accused or as a witness.

In the opinion of the judge, if a person feels intimidated in a public court with everyone watching, this bill would allow that person to be a witness from behind a curtain without being visible. Another very important thing is it could be arranged, for example, for the victim not to be in a position to physically see the accused. It is a very important thing in terms of victims' rights. I want to support that. I want to vote yes when the vote comes up for Bill C-15 because of some of those issues.

The bill talks about the issue of child pornography. I know that some of my other colleagues have already entered into the debate on that issue. I strongly want to vote in favour of anything that will reduce these vile attacks on our children. Whether it is an attack of physically using a child, which is absolutely unthinkable in my mind, or whether it is in the realm of cartoons and does not actually involve a child in their production, the very idea we would promote that in our society is such that I want to be against it.

The bill takes a few tepid steps in improving protection for children and in reducing the child pornography industry. I want to vote in favour of that but I do not want to vote in favour of some of the other things.

I am appalled at what little protection we give to children in our society. The age of consent is presently 14. That is unbelievable. We have friends who are a generation beneath us, but their children are growing up now. I am thinking right now of a specific family. They have a wonderful family with three children.

I cannot imagine someone actually enticing or intimidating this young lady, who is a couple months older than 14, into some of these heinous acts, whether by Internet or otherwise, and getting away with it because the age of consent is 14. The bill happens to talk about using the Internet as a means of enticing children.

I am opposed to the age of consent being 14. It should be at least 16, but preferably 18. If we are not ready to protect our children in society, then our society is going downhill. We need to take very strong steps in that regard.

Then there is the issue of cruelty to animals. This is one item that is very badly done in the bill. For the life of me I cannot condone for an instant deliberate cruelty to animals. I have heard of such situations. There was one situation in the Edmonton area next to my riding.

A lady had a house full of cats, which happens from time to time in different cities, but it was unreal how those animals suffered. I believe there were 50 to 100 of them in the house and they were not properly fed. In fact many of them had died. The people who went into the house said the stench was horrific, yet this woman lived with these cats. Obviously, this person was mentally ill and needed help. What happens to those animals is unconscionable.

I want to make it very clear that I am not in any way in favour or will I condone the wilful torture or inhumane treatment of animals.

I grew up on a farm in Saskatchewan. The things that needed to be done to train animals were well within the limits of reasonableness, yet not clearly defined in this particular bill.

Trying to train any animal, whether it is a dolphin at the zoo or an elephant, a combination of reward and punishment is used. That is the only way to train them. Some would think it is very cruel for a guy like me to get on a little pony to try and break it, yet it is a very good way of breaking it. I do not mean physically breaking its back, although that is a possibility. If a heavy person gets on an animal it tires more quickly and is brought to subjection more quickly. That is part of training an animal.

There are other things. I do not know how many members have a dog. How does one train a dog so that it behaves in a socially acceptable manner when living in a house with humans? I do not know of any little puppy that will respond to anything other than a small amount of physical punishment. It is not harmful, yet there would be some that would say it is cruel.

I think of the way we treated our animals on the farm. My dad was always very careful. However the bill says that everyone commits an offence who wilfully or recklessly causes, or being the owner, permits to be caused unnecessary pain, suffering or injury to an animal or who kills an animal or, being the owner, permits an animal to be killed, brutally or viciously, regardless of whether the animal dies immediately.

When I was young we used to go fishing. It was part of our food supply. When a fish is pulled out of the water it has that mean, ugly hook in its mouth, which is pretty cruel. Then the fish is killed. Some people just allow it to die of asphyxiation. Others use some other means to kill the fish. Does it mean that sport fishing now will be illegal? To me that is pretty brutal. If it was done to a human it certainly would be considered brutal. Yet it says that if one allows it to be done, brutally or viciously, regardless of whether the animal dies immediately, one is guilty.

We cannot have that. The bill will put at risk everyone who goes out sport fishing and actually uses the fish for food, which is a proper function. Here we have a Liberal bill and I am being told I have to vote for that.

I also think of animals. When we were on the farm we used to slaughter them. Nowadays they are taken to the abattoir and it is done professionally. However when I was a youngster we used to do that ourselves on the farm. My father used to point the rifle right in the middle of the animal's head and it died instantly. Again, if we did that to a human it would be considered brutal and vicious.

The words brutal and vicious are undefined. In this case the animal died, in my opinion, within milliseconds. Yet, according to the bill, that farmer, hunter or native in the North country who takes down a moose are all at risk because they have done something which is vicious and brutal.

I cannot support the bill if it has that kind of a clause in it. I plead with the government and the Speaker. Let us divide these things out. Let us talk about them one at a time. It would not take any longer. In fact it would take less time because we would be able to deal with each issue separately, get it to where we want it to be, have the vote and it would be done.

As it is right now, we are going to be hung up on this because we cannot reach an agreement on these things. It puts us into such a conundrum to be going frontward and backward on issues at the same time.

There is a limit to how far we can do that. I believe that democracy is eroded by the fact that these things are all in the bill. There are others, but I am out of time so cannot elaborate on the others. However, that is the essence of what I want to say today. I really wish that the government would reconsider and even at this stage, second reading of the bill, pull it back, divide it out and let us have some parliamentary co-operation here, which is what allows us to do our job.

[Howard Hilstrom, Canadian Alliance, Selkirk—Interlake, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I spoke to Bill C-15 earlier and pointed out that the provisions in C-15 as they pertain to the Firearms Act are part of this hidden agenda, this attempt to obtain a goal by indirect means. To further bolster the arguments and the positions I have put forward in this debate, I would like to put forward in the form of a question to my learned colleague from the Bloc Quebecois something from the Canadian Shooting Sports Association.

The infamous use it or lose it provisions were softened slightly in Bill C-15 but are still there. This action gives the CFO, the chief firearms officer, the authority to refuse or revoke a licence and/or registration for restricted firearms if the owner cannot prove the firearm was used for the purpose for which it was originally purchased, for example, target shooting or collecting.

The association was hopeful that the whole provision would be removed but says that the government gave in to the wailing of the Coalition for Gun Control and kept it in with a slight change. Instead of insisting that the gun be used for the original purpose, it will change to include any purpose listed in section 28, which refers to the protection of life, lawful profession, target shooting and collecting.

Just because a piece of property that was bought with after-tax income or earnings is sitting on a shelf and locked up according to the regulations, why should any government, bordering on the label of big brother government, come in and take that lawfully owned property just because it has not been used for a year? I would like the member to talk about civil liberties and the rights that Canadians should have to own property. Just because it may not be used, the government is saying it will come and take it away.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Mr. Speaker, for the benefit of people who are listening, I am pleased, once again, to make a summary of the context of Bill C-15, which the government has called an omnibus bill.

As I said earlier in jest, I compared this omnibus bill to a bus bill carrying an unlimited number of passengers. The government has included in this bill all the amendments it could think of, that is to say amendments to the criminal code.

What makes the situation awkward is that we find in the same bill amendments creating new offenses to provide protection to children from sexual exploitation, including sexual exploitation involving use of the Internet. The bill also increases the maximum penalty for criminal harassment; it makes home invasion an aggravating circumstance for sentencing purposes and it creates an offence of disarming, or attempting to disarm, a peace officer.

The bill also contains a whole part that increases sentences for offenses involving cruelty against animals. This is where we have a problem.

The bill contains a whole part we support. All members who spoke on the bill, members of the opposition, said they were eager to have this bill quickly passed and implemented.

We agree with offences relating to sexual exploitation of children, the increase of the maximum penalty for criminal harassment, making home invasion an aggravating circumstance and the new offence of disarming a peace officer.

As far as the increase in penalties for cruelty to animals is concerned, this is a situation that is hard to introduce into a single bill. It creates difficulties for an MP like myself, from the riding of Argenteuil--Papineau--Mirabel, the only federal riding between two metropolitan communities, Montreal to the east and the Outaouais region to the west. It is the only riding where the land is considered 50% agricultural and 50% forest, lakes and mountains.

We can therefore consider ourselves as part of the food basket for Greater Montreal and also for the Outaouais, while also being part of their playground.

Obviously, everything that could affect farmers and the work they do affects me directly. As for Bill C-15, given the increased penalties for cruelty to animals, I will reread a change to the designation of the term “animal”, which is “...a vertebrate, other than a human being, and any other animal that has the capacity to feel pain”.

Obviously, any vertebrate that has the capacity to feel pain leads us to think that anyone involved in animal husbandry may be liable to be charged under the criminal code under new clause 182 and those that follow, and even sentenced to up to five years in prison.

There are still many broad discussions required on this. What we are telling the government is that this is not over, that the discussions have not been completed as far as cruelty to animals and the penalties for it are concerned.

In this connection, I refer to where the text states that everyone commits an offence who “without lawful excuse, kills an animal” or “without lawful excuse, poisons an animal, places poison in such a position that it may easily be consumed by an animal”.

As far as agriculture is concerned, one thinks of rodents and so on, but the words that are the most striking are “without lawful excuse”, because there is no definition. The only words used are without lawful excuse.

This led to confusion. The Fédération des producteurs de lait du Québec, the Ontario Farm Federation and the Fédération des producteurs de volailles du Québec have all expressed strong opposition and want much greater clarity in the definition of the word animal and in the definition of the meaning of without lawful excuse.

The pressing problems must be resolved in the short term. We can never say it enough, the matter of child pornography must be regulated quickly. In the same bill, the government introduced the matter of cruelty to animals, which the various stakeholders from the agricultural community have not finished discussing.

I mentioned earlier that 50% of my riding is forest, mountains and lakes. It therefore is a playground for some people. The hunting and fishing associations, the people who operate the wildlife preserve in keeping with all the regulations and laws, with the necessary permits, all may be afraid as of today to enjoy their sport and fear being accused of a criminal offence if the fish or game is not killed immediately and suffers a bit.

On behalf of the farmers in the riding of Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, hunting and fishing associations, owners of hunting dogs and a very popular activity covering part of the riding, we are asking the question. All we want is to support the bill in connection with child pornography, an increase in the number of criminal offences in cases of criminal harassment and the creation of a new penalty for those who disarm peace officers in the course of their duty. We agree with this part of the bill.

We want the section of the bill dealing with cruelty to animals withdrawn from the bill and referred to various committees for discussion and expansion. That way the farmers of the riding of Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, Quebec and Canada will not be penalized and neither will hunters and fishers who enjoy their favourite sport within the law and with the necessary permits.

Farmers should not be penalized by a bill that would threaten the way they earn their livelihood, just as hunters and fishers should not be penalized for practicing their sport.

These days, my riding is all the more affected because the Mirabel airport is located on its territory. That airport was built right in the middle of an agricultural area. As we know, this was the largest expropriation, the largest displacement of people, second only to the terrible events that took place in Acadia.

This was a huge federal operation. We still do not have what was promised back then, when the project to build Mirabel airport in an agricultural zone was being implemented. The government had promised to build highways, to build highway 13, highway 50 and a bullet train that would travel to the airport terminal. In 2001, more than 30 years later, highways 13 and 50 have yet to be completed, and we are still without a high speed train, even though there is an airport terminal.

With any bill, any proposal from the federal government, people in my riding of Argenteuil--Papineau--Mirabel are all the more concerned when they are told: “Do not worry. This is not a problem. All those who practice their sport or who have a farming operation will not be affected by this bill”.

Again, we cannot trust the government when we read the text, the definitions and the explanations on what may be deemed to be cruelty to animals. Let me repeat the definition of the word animal:

—a vertebrate, other than a human being, and any other animal that has the capacity to feel pain.

This means that a farmer, a hunter or a fisher is likely to think that if he does not immediately kill the product of his work or the target of his sport, if there is any kind of suffering for any reason whatsoever, he could be accused of having committed a criminal act. This makes us all the more eager to ask questions.

We should ensure that this whole portion of the bill concerning cruelty to animals is referred to committee so that those who earn their living honorably by farming, those who enjoy sports and who respect the laws, hunters, fishers and owners of hunting dogs, can practise their sport and indulge in their hobby or do their work without being constantly harassed by a neighbour or anyone else who might accuse them for who knows what reason of a criminal act.

I am rereading this section of the bill where it says that a person could be charged with a criminal offence if he:

c) kills an animal without lawful excuse;

No definition of “lawful excuse” is given.

d) without lawful excuse, poisons an animal, places poison in such a position that it may easily be consumed by an animal--

I repeat, there are vermin and things for which many solutions are available in the interests of greater cleanliness and an improved quality of life.

What I, my colleagues in the Bloc Quebecois, and all members who have introduced bills and made speeches in the House are requesting is that the government split its bill, because an omnibus bill is a bill into which, I am joking, but that is how it looks, just about everything can be thrown, with no restrictions. That is why I described this bill as a catch-all bill or bus. At least we know how many passengers a bus can carry but, with an omnibus bill, there can be a series of amendments. When it is passed, it is passed in its entirety, and no part can be left out.

When government officials make recommendations, it is very difficult later on to make even a single change. Very important talks are taking place between the major bodies which speak for farmers throughout Quebec and Canada, and between the major associations representing hunters, fishers and owners of hunting dogs, those who use our forests, the wildlife on our lands, for recreational purposes, who show respect for their sport, comply with the rules and have the necessary licences. These people who earn their living from the land and use it for recreation have serious questions about this bill.

It would not be unthinkable for the government to decide, for once, to agree with the opposition and quickly pass and I cannot stress this enough, all of the amendments relative to the protection of children against sexual exploitation, criminal harassment, amendments regarding the disarming of a peace officer or increasing the sentencing for perpetrators of home invasions. We are ready and willing to pass this part of the bill very quickly, so that people will feel better protected.

As for the rest, for those provisions dealing with the implications of cruelty to animals, all of the definitions, protection for those who are involved in certain sports and who make an honest living, in order to spare them being punished by a bill that we passed in haste, we ask that the bill be split. We are still waiting to hear why the whole cruelty to animals issue is included in the same bill as protecting children from sexual exploitation. This is an aberration. It is allowed, because it is an omnibus bill, as it is called.

If there is one duty we owe to ourselves as parliamentarians in this House, it is to make sure that bills are clear, so that citizens not be left in doubt when it comes to issues such as the protection of children and cruelty to animals.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Mr. Speaker, before commenting on Bill C-15, I would like to remind the House of the geographic situation of my riding of Argenteuil--Papineau--Mirabel, which is the only riding located between two metropolitan communities, those being Montreal and the Outaouais, further to the west.

Fifty per cent of the riding is farmland, and 50% is covered by forests, mountains and lakes. We may therefore consider ourselves to be part of the refrigerator for the urban sector of Montreal and the Outaouais and, at the same time, the playground for these same sectors.

We therefore understand that a bill such as Bill C-15 has a direct impact on us, not because we are not aware that it could and will address some very important problems.

When we talk about child pornography, the sexual exploitation of children, home invasions, and creating an offence for disarming, or attempting to disarm, a peace officer, we can only be in favour of this part of the bill.

This is an omnibus bill. To use a more down to earth term for those who are listening to us, it is a “catch-all”. In other words, the same document includes amendments that are all very important, taken individually, but when lumped together into one document, can lead to great confusion. That is what we are trying to get across to the Liberal members, to the ministers and to the Prime Minister.

What we are saying is that, as far as animal cruelty is concerned, we have some serious problems with the definition of the term “animal” and the definition of what constitutes cruelty to animals.

So that everyone will understand properly, the definition is a broad one, and reads this way:

“animal” means a vertebrate, other than a human being, and any other animal that has the capacity to feel pain

The term animal is used in order to focus the bill, and as well offences are created which involve prison sentences. The list of offences reads as follows:

182.2 (1) Every one commits an offence who...

c) kills an animal without lawful excuse;

d) without lawful excuse, poisons an animal, places poison in such a position that it may easily be consumed by an animal...

For the farmers of Argenteuil--Papineau--Mirabel, this is a far too broad definition and a category of offences which makes the mere act of being a farmer and raising animals for meat liable to lead to criminal charges.

This does not include vermin. If a farmer has a large amount of land, if he is lucky enough to have it, then there will be vermin, rodents. If a person wants to get rid of them, he might be accused of a criminal act.

This has led a number of the hon. members who have spoken against this bill in this House to say that, while favourable to a large part of this bill, there is the whole matter of animal cruelty. It would therefore be advisable for this matter to be referred to committee, where it can be discussed so that no farmer in my riding, or anywhere in Quebec or in Canada, is liable to be charged for earning a living in the most honourable activity of farming.

We could add to this that the hunting and fishing associations dotting our province--I repeat, we are part of the Montreal metropolitan and the Outaouais metropolitan communities--have suffered serious indirect effects in connection with amendments, gun registration and so on.

In addition, hunters and fishers merely enjoying their sport, fishing and killing a fish without a legitimate excuse, or letting it live, not killing it directly or immediately, could be liable to face immediate criminal proceedings.

Obviously, the government will understand that this situation, this “catch-all” bill as I have named it, includes a variety of laws, that are quite acceptable. The people of the riding of Argenteuil--Papineau--Mirabel agree with changes to the provisions on protecting children against sexual exploitation, protecting children against sexual harassment, additional protection that would make those who disarm peace officers liable to face greater penalty, or protection against home invasions.

The people of Argenteuil--Papineau--Mirabel would support, they would pass a bill on this, and on their behalf, I would be prepared to pass such a bill. However, as far as we are concerned, the whole matter of cruelty to animals should not be included in the same bill. Protection of children against sexual harassment and cruelty to animals are two matters that must be totally separate. The bill must be divided, split.

[Howard Hilstrom, Canadian Alliance, Selkirk—Interlake, MB]

Mr. Speaker, once again that was a fine speech and contribution to the debate in parliament. I spoke earlier about a hidden agenda, which to me really means a government is trying to accomplish an objective through indirect means.

I will not go back into legislation over the course of the last few years, but the legislation in Bill C-15 in regard to animal cruelty would still make it illegal to have pheasants in captivity and release them into a cornfield for the purposes of hunting. There is no difference between hunting a pheasant that has been released and one that happens to just walk by in the cornfield.

We have the issues of the cost of federal and provincial licences with regard to hunting, the cost of registering firearms, the cost of getting permits to possess the firearms, the cost of driving out to a hunting area and the cost of having some food and whatever else. It is becoming such a hassle to be a hunter and, as a result, we find many people are no longer taking up the sport because of all these impediments.

The hidden agenda of the anti-hunting and animal rights lobby group, which the government listened to with the legislation, is to stop any use of animals by humans for food. They are trying to totally disarm Canadians because as people give up hunting they do not have a need for firearms and do not want to spend money for a licence.

Bill C-15 is one more step in the hidden agenda of disarming the Canadian population by making it illegal to hunt captive animals. The definition of animals will possibly allow for the prosecution of a farmer who does a normal thing like putting an ear tag in a cow because it requires punching a hole in the ear which causes a moment of pain.

Could the hon. member comment on that and, in particular, does he believe there is a hidden agenda in the bill?

[Deepak Obhrai, Canadian Alliance, Calgary East, AB]

Madam Speaker, it is a pleasure to see you back in the chair. I hope you had a good summer holiday. What puzzles me is simple. Government members were members of the opposition prior to 1993. They know how important a role the opposition plays in a democracy.

Those members have actual experience at being in the opposition. Those members stood in this place and held the government accountable. We can quote Hansard time after time to indicate what they said was important for democracy. What puzzles me is that, now they are on the other side, whatever they said while they were on this side has gone out the window. It is amazing that when they were in opposition they were pointing to weaknesses in our democracy. They are ignoring their own advice now that they are on the other side.

Many people listening to the debate may be wondering what we are talking about with regard to this omnibus bill. If I were listening to this debate I would have to ask myself the same. What exactly is the issue? Let me state this in plain and simple terms so people can understand what we are saying.

The government has brought in a bill containing a number of virtually unrelated justice issues that have been lumped into one piece of legislation. It makes it extremely difficult to debate these issues that are important to Canadians. They cannot be brushed aside. This is not a housekeeping bill.

I will talk about some of the issues. Child luring and child pornography over the Internet are extremely important issues, considering what is happening with the Internet. It is accessible to a huge number of people. This is a new menace which needs to be controlled and discussed at length.

The issue of animal cruelty is included in the bill. I have received a huge number of postcards from people regarding the pros and cons of what is considered animal cruelty. I am sure every MP has received a huge number of letters from people concerned about the issue. Canadians living in rural regions who deal with animals on a day to day basis have a different perspective because their living depends on it. They want more clarification so they do not break the law.

My colleague, the most senior member in the Canadian Alliance caucus and probably in the House, talked about shooting squirrels and sitting in jail for a long period of time. I hope it does not come to that. He was trying to illustrate the simple point that the bill did not have a lot of clarity.

The bill also contains amendments to the Firearms Act, Bill C-68, which is a totally different subject altogether. Criminal harassment is also contained in the bill, as is the issue of disarming a police officer. This is a very serious issue that we need to discuss to see what punishment should be given and what criminal procedure should be followed. This legislation needs a lot of discussion.

We are discussing many issues that are contained in one bill. We are saying that we cannot have a proper debate on all these important issues because members of parliament are not able to speak about the concerns of their constituents.

This is a bill drafted by bureaucrats who wanted it passed. They should not have sent it to the House of Commons. They should have done it under regulations. The bill does not have the input of the representatives of the people of Canada. It has the writings of the bureaucrats who do not represent the elected people of Canada. Bureaucrats do not get feedback from the people; elected representatives do.

I have been the CIDA critic and I know the government spends millions of dollars in bringing people from fledgling democracies to Canada to show them how democracy works. Over the period of 100 years this Chamber has built itself into a very respectable place where we debate issues. However when bills such as this one are introduced, democratic rights are trampled.

What is democracy? Democracy is where a government is accountable on issues of the day. It is the right of Canadians to speak through their elected representatives who sit in the House.

Then we get something like this, an omnibus bill written by bureaucrats, where we cannot discuss the issues in more depth to present the views of all Canadians. We have a big, diverse country containing diverse views. The government likes to use the word diversity and how it is the defender of diversity. Diversity also includes the points of view from coast to coast to coast, from urban to rural areas.

We do not have the opportunity of doing that because everything is lumped together in the bill and by 5.30 p.m. it will be all over. It will be pushed through.

The bill was written by bureaucrats who sit in Ottawa and do not represent the diversity of Canada. Members of parliament represent those diverse views.

When speaking to people who have come to see democracy in action, I have said that we have to be vigilant not to let the rights of the opposition be eroded because that right is the right of the people to hold a government accountable. When that erosion happens then we have to speak. Bill C-15 is an example of that.

Many members on the other side have also recognized that. When they were in opposition they understood the important role of the opposition. They too are saying that they see the danger and warning signals in Bill C-15. However they cannot say anything. Nevertheless they do have concern.

There are currently five members of the government here. In the last one and a half hours I have been sitting in the Chamber I have not even seen one of them stand.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC]

Madam Speaker, before getting to the main thrust of my speech, I would like to take a mere 30 seconds to extend my best wishes to our new whip here in the House, the hon. member for Témiscamingue, and his great team.

We all know about his promotion, and I am sure my enthusiasm is shared by others, knowing that he will acquit himself of his duties with a combination of two facets of his personality, good old-fashioned authoritarianism and unceasing generosity.

It is, however, somewhat incredible that we are faced here with a bill that is so unpalatable, so inconsistent, so unacceptably flawed as far as its definitions go, such an incoherent mishmash.

Madam Speaker, I was elected when you were, in 1993, although I am your junior by a few years, and I would never have believed at that time that I would one day end up in this House being forced to speak to a bill as inconsistent as this one.

How can people claim to be part of a properly functioning system if they are in government and expect legislators to properly acquit themselves, with due care and professional conscience, of their task of examining legislation, and yet come up with a bill that is totally impossible to grasp?

We would have understood had the government chosen to deal with such an important issue as animal cruelty. Of course, there is a new school of thought, of which we are aware because people make representations to us as their elected representatives. We know that the issue of animal cruelty requires a tightening of existing legislative provisions, including those contained in the criminal code.

We would have understood had the government chosen to validate its bill. Contrary to my colleagues, I am not one of those who will not get to the bottom of the issue. I would have been extremely happy to do my job as a parliamentarian, to listen to what people in our communities had to say on this issue of animal cruelty and to do whatever I could to ensure we have the best legislation possible.

But it is not what this is about. The same bill deals with the offence of disarming a police officer, the Firearms Registration Act, and the process for reviewing allegations of miscarriage of justice.

Could anyone give me an explanation? I would ask my colleagues in the government majority, who have become cruelly silent in this debate, to tell me how all this was presented to them in caucus. Can anybody on the government side tell us what the connection is between the process for reviewing allegations of miscarriage of justice, gun control--members will notice that my colleagues are constantly urging me on, which gives me the impression that I am really giving my best--animal cruelty, imposing harsher penalties, disarming a police officer, and the Firearms Act?

Nobody can. I hope that during the period of questions and comments, someone on the government side will rise, and on the pretext of asking me a question, answer this one.

Let us make no mistake, the member for Berthier--Montcalm, whom you hold in high esteem, as do I, rose in this House and made it clear that we support certain provisions without reservation.

For example, there is the whole matter--an important one--of the sexual exploitation of children in a way that did not exist when we were children, but that has taken on massive importance in the past ten years, and more specifically in the past five. I refer to the Internet.

These are important provisions, which must be included in the criminal code and require us, as parliamentarians, to hold a proper debate. But, for heaven's sake, how can they ask us to vote on this sort of indigestible mishmash of a bill?

I cannot imagine that. There are responsible drafters at the Department of Justice. There are people who no doubt said to the government “It is really not very reasonable to combine a variety of problems that have nothing to do with one another in a single bill”.

If, for those who have just joined us, we had to summarize the bill, I would say there are eight major focuses.

As I have just mentioned, there are references to the establishment of new offences in order to protect children from sexual exploitation, including that which involves the Internet.

The member for Berthier--Montcalm will shake his head to correct me if I am wrong, since his legal knowledge is well known, but I think this arises from a court decision. Does it not arise from a decision by the BC supreme court? The member is nodding, so I guess I am not mistaken.

The second focus of the bill consists of increasing the maximum penalty for criminal harassment. This is an important provision.

With the third point, things start to drift a bit. In fact, if the philosopher Pascal were here, he would say of this bill that the centre is everywhere and the periphery nowhere to be seen. The third focus of this bill makes home invasions an aggravating circumstance for sentencing purposes.

So, we have gone from cruelty to animals, to child pornography, to sexual harassment, to home invasions. It is hard to find a common thread in such a hodgepodge.

Fourth, the bill proposes a new offence, that of disarming, or attempting to disarm, a peace officer. This is an important provision. Every year, law enforcement officers attend an awareness day on Parliament Hill. For several years now, I have been meeting with them, as have a number of my colleagues, and I therefore know that this was one of the things they were asking for. Should this be included in a bill like the one before us? I have my doubts.

The fifth focus of the bill is to increase the penalties for cruelty to animals. Say again—just when you think you've heard everything—I must point out how vague this bill is and how open to criticism the definitions are.

The proposed definition for “animal”—obviously the question arises and we must be clear—is as follows:

“animal” means a vertebrate, other than a human being, and any other animal that has the capacity to feel pain.

The question that arises is whether a farmer who deliberately poisons a rat will be charged under clause 15 of the bill. There is no immediate answer to this question on the strength of the proposed definitions.

Let me be clear. There are several important provisions in the bill which we support, but the debate we have been invited to take part in today has to do with the amendment moved by the Canadian Alliance members regarding the need to divide the bill.

The hon. member for Berthier--Montcalm told me earlier, and he knows these issues well, that this bill could easily be split into three different bills. Based on the various provisions, there could have been three bills that could have followed the course of parliamentary process that we are all familiar with: tabling of the bill, second reading, referral to a committee, third reading, debate and referral to the other place.

Again, I hope that someone from the government side will stand up and explain to us what the rush is to pass such a patchwork of measures in this omnibus bill. We need to give the government a serious warning. We have had it with this idea of tabling omnibus legislation which leads to a certain amount of confusion. We rush them through and, in the end, this creates, again, inconsistency.

We were not elected to the House to be confused. I think we need to recall what the philosopher Boileau said “What is conceived well is expressed clearly, and the words to say it arrive with ease”.

But that is not how it starts, it starts as follows:

Clarity of thought for some Remains a goal not often won As through a cloud there comes no sun

I must say in all friendship to the Minister of Justice this day has definitely not come in her case, because her mind is fogged by thick clouds. Indeed, it takes some nerve to dare introduce Bill C-15, an omnibus bill governed by eight different principles dealing with eight different issues that have nothing to do with one another, except for the fact, of course, that they are all included in the criminal code.

The best thing that could happen would be to see the pages go around the House and pick up the copies of this bill, and the Minister of Justice go back to the drawing board and table, as the hon. member for Berthier--Montcalm rightly pointed out, two or three bills. Then I can assure hon. members that we would make a contribution to the review of this bill, in a serious and reasonable fashion and with the good faith that has always characterized the Bloc Quebecois.

Far from me the idea of downplaying the issues of animal cruelty, sexual harassment or child pornography on the Internet which, as we know, was ruled on by the court.

We should not be proud of what is going on today. Not only is there no reason to be proud, but it is an ugly thing to want to use one's majority to confound the opposition. I should point out that this is our third mandate here and we have seen quite a few of these malicious attempts.

If I could make a wish it would be that both sides, the government and the opposition, would put an end to this practice of introducing omnibus bills and instead take the time required to table bills dealing with very definite issues.

When the issues are very specific, it is easy for us legislators to understand the government's objectives. Let us do our work properly in the House, in committee and at third reading. Is this not what the voters who mandated us here expect? Is this not a legitimate expectation on the part of our fellow citizens? Unfortunately, as I said, this is not what is going on today.

We must ask our fellow citizens what attitude they wish us to adopt. The terrible thing about the situation we are in today—the member for Berthier--Montcalm admitted this just now—is that we lose either way. For instance, we want very clear restrictions on child pornography on the Internet; we hope that the legislation will included tougher provisions in the criminal code.

We can go along with one very particular dimension of Bill C-15. But how can we ignore our desire to hold a real debate on the issue of child pornography when at the same time there are provisions regarding the mechanisms for review of judicial errors? The issue of judicial errors is not an insignificant one. The member for Repentigny himself introduced a private member's bill on this issue.

Let us remember that there have been a number of judicial errors. People have been locked away for 15, 20, 25 years in jail on the strength of facts that turned out not to be accurate. We have some only too concrete examples of people whose lives were ruined because justice made a mistake.

Furthermore, if I may approach this with my customary frankness, the Marshall Commission was created to look into this problem.

The Marshall Commission recommended that when it was a question of reviewing judicial errors and deciding on corrective action, it should be possible to operate with complete freedom from any sort of political interference and that there should be an independent body which would ensure a fair and equitable review, guided by the principles of basic justice and of natural justice.

My understanding of the bill before us is that this is not the direction in which the government is urging us to go, because this decision will lie with the Minister of Justice. Once again, this is not personal. We are not saying that the Minister of Justice is incapable of making good decisions. We are saying “Why not go along with a trend we are seeing in public administration, which is to separate the legislative arm from the executive arm so that the people making the decisions are independent, free from any political interference?”

As we can well realize, we have before us someone who is sad. Unfortunately, I believe we will be extremely aggressive in this instance, as a group of parliamentarians, and will do our best in order to gain an end: the breaking up of this bill. I do not think that is anything unreasonable.

I can see my colleagues in the government majority, and they will agree with me that everyone stands to gain from having clear ideas when involved in politics, that everyone gains if we all understand what we are voting on.

There is one important point to be raised. Does Bill C-15 have to be the government's priority? In my riding, four bars have been blown up, so far. The biker gang wars are on again in Montreal, although some people may be under the illusion that things had calmed down. That is not so. Bars are being blown up. It started in Saint-Henri, and now it has spread to Hochelaga—Maisonneuve. The member for Berthier—Montcalm and myself, along with our colleague, the critic for the solicitor general, have worked very, very hard in parliamentary committee to improve Bill C-95, which has now become Bill C-24.

The bill is not perfect, as we know. At least the offences have been described better. Aggravating circumstances have been added. The definitions are better, so that some people who were not covered in the past now are. With Bill C-24, people at any place in the legal system will be better protected.

We would have liked to have seen the process take a better course than this. There were many other priorities for the government than to bring Bill C-15 before us.

I will make a short digression into the area of health, which is my primary area of responsibility after all. The hon. member for Drummond, who is no hothead, not one to get carried out or to lack judgment—in fact her judgment is very sound when she addressed these issues—made a comment in connection with the bill proposed by the government on the new technologies of assisted reproduction that it has a constant tendency to resort to omnibus bills. It was were not able to immediately propose to us a bill that would have banned cloning for reproductive purposes, as well as for therapeutic purposes.

The opposition has worked hard to help with a problem and a bill like this one. I repeat, why do we have such an ill-conceived bill, one that is likely to implode because of all the contradictions it contains? We could have had a debate on reproductive technologies, because—let us not forget—there is a legal void at the moment.

It is not unthinkable that a researcher in Italy, Germany, France or anywhere else in the world could arrive in Canada and start playing around with human embryos and end up in a situation where genetic engineering could lead to cloning. Our hands would be totally tied.

As we saw this summer, there is a legal void, because there is nothing in the criminal code to allow the crown to take action on this basis. This is something we could have done.

In closing, I would say the best thing we could do would be to decide to split the bill. The government should act on this request. Once the bill is split, the government could count on the opposition to do its usual responsible and thorough work.

[Monte Solberg, Canadian Alliance, Medicine Hat, AB]

Madam Speaker, my friend is absolutely correct.

One of the things that I think most turns off Canadians is the government using its ability to set the legislative agenda to play political games. There is no question that this is what it has done for Bill C-15, knowing that it can count on the public's lack of understanding of how complicated the bill is to try to trap opposition members. It is completely disingenuous.

What a responsible government would do when it comes to bills like Bill C-15 is divide them. That is clearly what opposition members have been asking for.

The government has claimed in the last several months that it is committed to reforming the House of Commons. It could start by ensuring that we would not have omnibus bills any more by ensuring that there is a provision to divide up these bills. We could change the standing orders to empower the Speaker to divide bills that are omnibus bills. There would be nothing wrong with doing that.

I completely agree with my friend that if the government is committed to democratic reform that is a good place to start.

[Monte Solberg, Canadian Alliance, Medicine Hat, AB]

Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague for his fine speech and the question at the end of it. The hon. member has asked me a very specific question. I can tell him that there are a number of aspects of the bill that the Canadian Alliance agrees with.

We agree with stiff penalties for luring children through the Internet. We would pass that quickly. We agree with provisions against child pornography. We would pass that quickly. We agree with provisions that provide a penalty for trying to disarm a peace officer. We would pass that quickly. Those are things we agree with. We have no problem with them.

More to some of the things that my friend said in his discourse, the thing that concerns me most of all about what is happening in this place today is its lack of relevance to where the public is at today. The public is gripped by what the future holds for it as a result of the World Trade Center bombings and the attack on the Pentagon. The Canadian public wants to know what the implications are for it.

Why are we not debating those things in the House of Commons? We are here to do the people's business. I can state that today Bill C-15 is not the people's business. They want these other issues addressed.

I would urge the Prime Minister and the House leader from the government side to remember that they are here and have an obligation to serve the public. They are not doing that when we are debating bills that to a large degree are simply not relevant in the context of what has happened in the United States in the last nine days.

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Madam Speaker, I listened carefully to the remarks of the previous speaker. Indeed, the first part of it concerned the conduct of the Liberal government. We have to acknowledge that the Canadian Alliance member was right.

We do have a strange government. It says one thing and does another. It tells the people one thing but, in practice, does something else. We could give many examples of this.

I will give an example similar to the one the member gave, and it concerns organized crime. This is a very important matter. Everyone has debated it here in the House. We quickly passed the bill in June in order to implement it as quickly as possible. Bill C-24 is before the other House as is another very important bill, Bill C-7, the Youth Criminal Justice Act.

The Liberal government says that public safety is important and that it wants to do its utmost to, in addition to having anti-gang legislation, amend the anti-gang legislation, which has not yet been passed in the Senate, and add amendments in order to fight terrorism. Well, we might have thought the government would instruct the other House to have Bill C-24 examined as quickly as possible in order to be put into effect. Well no, it did not.

The Liberal government instructed the Senate not to pass as quickly as possible the anti-gang legislation, the legislation to fight organized crime, not to make amendments to cover terrorism, as the Prime Minister has been saying since the start of the conflict; no, the government instructed the other House to pass Bill C-7. Declaring war against young offenders will certainly settle the affairs of the world. This is an example of the sort of speech the government makes here for public ears. But, the reality of the matter is something else again.

The Canadian Alliance member is right: we should be discussing something other than a bill as complicated and controversial as Bill C-15. If hon. members took a good look at this legislation, they would agree that it is inconsistent. We cannot deal with and put on the same footing—after all, we are amending the criminal code—the protection of children, the vulnerability of childhood, and the protection of animals. This does not make any sense.

We could pass very quickly all the provisions that have to do with the protection of children, such as Internet games and issues. We could also adopt very quickly provisions dealing with penalties as they relate to harassment. We could adopt them today if the government was willing to co-operate by simply splitting the bill.

There are controversial clauses, such as those on animal cruelty. I can understand the hon. member from western Canada whose constituents are very concerned with this bill, because back home in Quebec, we also have farmers, people who work with animals, hunters, fishers, research laboratories and universities that are concerned. Instead of discussing a bill that no one wants or that is largely controversial, we could have talked about the preparation of the strikes that the United States are about to make. We could have talked about how to help small and medium size businesses, companies, and how to improve our border services. We could have talked about the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, about public safety. But no, we are not talking about these issues.

Could the Canadian Alliance member tell us which parts of the bill we could quickly adopt because they are not being challenged by his party, and could he point out those that are more controversial and require a more indepth review? Could we split this bill in two?

We could adopt one part quickly and take more time to properly review the other part.

[Monte Solberg, Canadian Alliance, Medicine Hat, AB]

Madam Speaker, it is a pleasure to be back in the House to speak to Bill C-15. Before I begin my speech I want to say hi to Mike Harris. I am not referring to Mike Harris, the premier of Ontario, although I admire him very much, but to Mike Harris, the son of our whip who is in the lobby today. He is a great guy and is the biggest fan of the Prince George Cougars.

The other day my wife and I were walking by the U.S. embassy. I was just amazed at the outpouring of sympathy for what has happened in the United States. Canadians from across the country have showered the U.S. embassy with flowers, cards and their thoughts about how much they feel for the people of the United States and for the people around the world who were affected by the World Trade Center bombing. I do not think there is anyone who would not be moved by this outpouring of sympathy for our friends in the United States.

On behalf of the residents of the Medicine Hat constituency, I offer our sympathies to Ambassador Cellucci, President Bush and the people of the United States. The Americans are our best friends and have been throughout our time as a country. We have to stand with them in these difficult times.

As we debate Bill C-15 there are many people that feel there are more important things to be debating than Bill C-15. In light of the attack on the World Trade Center, the Pentagon and the plane crash in Pennsylvania, many people have questioned whether or not Canada is prepared to deal with the sorts of events that occurred south of the border.

They feel, and rightly so, that this is the place where we should be debating those things, not just for one or two days but until there is some sense that Canada has a handle on some of the implications of those attacks and some of the planning that needs to occur for us to go forward. There are many aspects to it.

I do not want this to be a partisan debate but I do feel there is real concern about parliament being relevant at a critical time like this one. Although there are very important elements to Bill C-15, the issues of safety and security should be brought forward for serious debate in which we lay out some of the public's concerns.

For example, there are issues about the safety of our international border: whether or not proper screening is done of people who come into this country, whether or not proper resources are devoted to gathering intelligence, and whether or not the people crossing our borders are coming here for the right reasons.

I hasten to add that the huge majority of people who come to this country are here for the right reasons. They are good and responsible people who want to come and contribute to this country. However there are people who come here for all of the wrong reasons.

There have been reports of people connected to terrorist organizations who have come to Canada. They may even be connected to the World Trade Center bombing. People are rightly concerned about this issue. They want to know that our government has taken steps to deal with such things and that it has not been negligent at some point in the past. These things should be debated in this place.

Some of the other implications that flow from it are equally important. People are now concerned about what provisions are in place when it comes to air travel. If there is to be less air travel, that will have an impact on the economy and on the viability of air carriers. Air Canada is asking for $3 billion to bail it out of trouble.

Those are the sorts of things we should be debating today as opposed to Bill C-15. We should be debating the state of the Canadian military. We talked a bit about it in question period, but that debate should not be limited to question period. These are the things that grip the country. I do not understand and I am sure the public does not understand why we cannot have free ranging debates in this place when these are the things that concern the public.

One of the things that must concern the public in the wake of the World Trade Center attack is the impact it will have on the Canadian economy. People were simply so gripped by what was going on in the United States that they sat in front of their televisions for two and a half or three days. This had an economic impact as will a border between Canada and the U.S. that may be more restricted in the future than it has been up until now.

We need to figure out what we can do to ensure that we have the free flow of goods and services back and forth across that border because it is a huge part of Canada's GDP. Our exports to the U.S. alone are something like 34% of GDP and total trade with the U.S. is something like 43% of GDP. Those are huge figures.

If there are restrictions at the border as a result, they will have profound impact on the Canadian economy. They could have a very large impact on our ability to maintain a balanced budget. They may also have an impact on our ability to fund some programs when we know there is a demand to put funding into defence, foreign affairs, intelligence gathering and better screening of our borders. Those are the things we should be debating today.

The World Trade Center attack has also pointed to the disconnect between what is important to the country today and what the business of parliament is today. We should not forget that as we go forward.

I hope the House leaders will see the contradiction between what is important to the public and what is going on in the House and take steps to rectify it because we are not truly doing the business the public wants us to do.

Having said all of that, I will now proceed with my speech on Bill C-15. There are some important provisions in the bill that are meritorious, deserve the attention of the House and speedy passage. A couple of them are the aspects that relate to child pornography and the luring of children.

As has been made clear by my colleagues in the Canadian Alliance and by other members in this place, we are in a position where members on the opposition benches would be quite prepared to pass those aspects of the bill immediately if we could divide the bill and deal in a more thoughtful way with the other things that are not as critical and to which everyone agrees. We want to deal with those things, but when it comes to some of the other provisions we are deeply concerned.

One of the things in Bill C-15 that troubles people in rural areas is the provisions that deal with animal cruelty.

Members of the House and the public should consider what Bill C-15 is like from the perspective of farmers or ranchers in southern Alberta. They see provisions in Bill C-15 that impede their ability to make a living at a time when they are under tremendous strain.

We have had two years of drought in my riding and no measurable precipitation this past August. It was the worst period of drought since 1888. Farmers were plowing under fields in July. There was no runoff from snowfall in the spring because there simply was no snow.

There was no water for the livestock. Herds had to be dispersed in the very first part of the spring. Usually ranchers are able to graze their cattle all summer on the pastures but that was not an option this year because they did not even have water at the beginning of the year. There was no water at all and they had to disperse their herds. If there was enough water to keep the herds going, there was not enough grass in the pasture so they had to feed their cattle with hay which becomes very expensive. There was a huge impact on the livestock industry. With respect to grains and oilseeds, again there was no moisture. Fields were plowed under. Crops were plowed under. It has been an absolute wreck when it comes to those issues.

There are several irrigation districts in my riding. Because there was so little snowpack in the mountains this year, only the irrigation districts which had a very large capacity for storing water were able to irrigate through the entire growing season. In some of the irrigation districts, land that is typically irrigated land, there was not enough water to get to some of the crops. The less valuable crops such as grains did not get irrigation water. They were coming in at 10 bushels on the acre when they would typically come in at 40, 50 or 60 bushels on the acre.

It has been a terrible year when it comes to weather conditions in southern Alberta and it has had an impact on the agricultural industry. That comes on top of bad conditions the year before.

Bill C-15 on top of all that is basically a way to kick those producers when they are down. In Bill C-15 they see all kinds of impediments to their being able to do their jobs and make a livelihood. What are the impediments?

There are provisions in Bill C-15 that would make it an offence to harm animals in any way. The problem is that the legislation itself is very unclear about what constitutes harm. For instance in animal husbandry when bull calves have to be castrated, branded or provided with an ear tag, the ranchers are concerned that would be against the law. The Canadian Cattlemen's Association and others have raised this concern.

Some people on the other side have assured us that it would not be a problem, but, in the end because the bill is not clear, it could be left to the discretion of a judge. It could be left to someone to interpret. We are asking either to make this provision much more clear by making amendments to the bill or simply to scrap this provision for now until it is sorted out.

The concern is that if it is not made clear, at some point an animal rights group or whatever will challenge it in the courts. There is the possibility that a judge could read it in such a way as to make it very difficult, if not impossible, for farmers and ranchers to treat livestock in a way that is necessary for them to raise livestock for food and that sort of thing.

Those are the sorts of concerns we have with Bill C-15. I do not understand why there could not be a clarification in the bill that would make it very clear what kinds of practices are allowed when dealing with livestock, for instance. Then we could put the minds of farmers and ranchers at ease.

I want to underline how important that is to people in my riding especially at a time when things have been so difficult for farmers and ranchers.

I want to talk about other provisions in the bill. I have already touched on them briefly, but I think it bears repeating that the official opposition and people on the opposition benches in general, object to the idea that so many different aspects of the criminal code and other acts are being dealt with in what is an omnibus bill. The problem with an omnibus bill is that very often there are some things that people in the opposition support and other things that they do not support. I cannot help but think there is a little mischief going on when it comes to the government putting so many different things in one bill. It puts us in a position where if we oppose the bill for very good reasons, the government can claim that we do not support provisions to track down people who are engaged in child pornography which of course is fiction.

We do support those provisions. That is why we have been arguing for the last number of speeches that the bill should be split. We do support provisions to go after child pornographers. We do support laws that ensure that people who try to lure children through the Internet are dealt with in a very tough manner under the criminal code. We believe in those things. However, we do not support the idea of an omnibus bill like this one which makes it difficult to separate out all the different aspects of it and to vote in a way that expresses how we feel about the bill in general. I simply had to make that point.

I will conclude where I began, which is to say that in the wake of the World Trade Center bombings, many parliamentarians are deeply concerned that this is not the appropriate time to conduct business as usual in the House of Commons. These are extraordinary times. We should be dealing with the issues that the country is concerned about, the issues that have gripped people for the last eight or nine days. If the government ever wanted to demonstrate goodwill toward reforming parliament and ensuring that the public is not cynical about how this place operates, this would be a perfect opportunity to suspend the usual business to engage in some of the discussions I mentioned at the outset that really do have a deep and profound impact on the day to day goings on of the Canadian public.

Madam Speaker, I move:

That the amendment be amended by inserting after the word “principles” the following:

Such as: child luring and child pornography over the Internet; animal cruelty; amendments to the Firearms Act; criminal harassment; home invasions; disarming, or attempting to disarm, a peace officer; reforming criminal procedure; and allegations of miscarriage of justice.

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I listened attentively to what the hon. member said, and indeed, he is right on a number of points.

I would simply like the hon. member to enlighten the House. I want to make sure that I understood the thrust of his speech. Everyone knows that there are a number of subjects covered in the omnibus bill, Bill C-15, before the House. There are a number of subjects amended in the criminal code.

Am I correct in understanding that he would like the government to follow up on the opposition's request to split Bill C-15 into several bills, including one that could deal with, as the hon. member stated so well, sexual exploitation and the whole issue of the use of the Internet in order to gain access to children. Another bill could deal with criminal harassment, and another with home invasion.

Am I correct in understanding that a number of these bills would not be contested by his party, in other words, that they would give their consent fairly quickly? Or perhaps he could even give it immediately and tell the government “Here are the subjects on which we agree and on which we would like to proceed quickly. Here are the other subjects that we consider problematic, and in which the House should invest more time, in order to examine some particular aspect of the bill, because it deserves a more in-depth study”.

My question is quite simple. I would like to hear from the hon. member from the New Democratic Party what exactly is not contested by his party and that he would like to have passed quickly, and what is problematic. Could he distinguish between the two so that it can be determined as specifically as possible which elements of the bill are problematic and which are not?

Business of the House

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, this afternoon we will continue debate on Bill C-15, the criminal code amendments. Time permitting, I would like to start with Bill C-6, the water export bill. If there is agreement, which I intend to seek very shortly, a take note debate would follow after 8.30 p.m., pursuant to requests made in the House by some hon. members, on the Prime Minister's forthcoming visit to the United States of America to meet the president.

On Friday, we will commence second reading of Bill S-23, the Customs Act, and if necessary, Bill C-6, the water bill.

On Monday, we will deal with Bill C-30, the courts administration bill, followed by second reading of Bill C-27, regarding nuclear waste.

Next Tuesday shall be an allotted day, in the name of the Bloc Quebecois.

Next Wednesday we will deal with the Nunavut water and surface rights bills which was introduced earlier this day.

As I mentioned earlier, I draw to the attention of House that there were some consultations earlier today. Given these consultations, I will propose a motion now to the House. However, for the benefit of House leaders, it will be slightly amended because I will have to remove some words in order to seek what I believe is the common ground. If the House leaders have the text of the motion, I will start in the second sentence, not the first. I move:

That, at 8.30 p.m. this day, the House shall continue to sit and shall resolve itself into a committee of the whole to consider a motion “That the committee take note of the planned meeting between the Prime Minister and the President of the United States” provided that, during consideration thereof: (1) the Speaker may from time to time act as Chair of the committee; (2) the Chair of the committee shall not receive any quorum call or any motion except the motion “That the committee do now rise”; (3) when no Member rises to speak, or at 12 a.m., whichever is earlier, the committee shall rise; and (4) when the committee rises the House shall immediately adjourn to the next sitting day.

Criminal Law Amendment Act, 2001

[Larry Spencer, Canadian Alliance, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Mr. Speaker, the omnibus bill raises a number of questions. It raises questions in my own riding of Regina--Lumsden--Lake Centre because people cannot imagine why we would combine such a wide diversity of topics into one bill and why that would have to be.

What is the purpose of Bill C-15? We have heard mention of hidden agendas and that sort of thing, but what really is the purpose of Bill C-15? It is said that the purpose of Bill C-15 is to amend the criminal code and the criminal law in certain ways.

I looked at the ways we are suggesting to amend it and some amendments intend to protect children from sexual predators, especially on the Internet; some deal with criminal harassment; some deal with aggravated home invasions; some deal with disarming of police officers; some revise the process of going to the Minister of Justice for miscarriages of justice; and some reform the process for preliminary inquiries and that process within the judicial system. Those relate to people.

Then all of a sudden I am reminded that there is also something to increase the maximum penalty for cruelty to animals which of course there is no problem with except for the lack of some of the clarification we have mentioned.

Then we come to the section about guns. We have gone from people to animals and now to guns. This again just further helps the administration to pass awful legislation that has not been successful and is not working properly, is not being enforced and is not being obeyed. We need to admit that.

It then moves to include other acts.

What is the real purpose of Bill C-15? Is it for the protection of our children? Certainly the bill does offer some protection from sexual exploitation, especially over the Internet, and it increases the penalties. We applaud and appreciate that. It is a good part of the bill and we offer our full support. Let me remind the House that except for the stubbornness of the minister and the government, that provision could have been law months ago and they chose not to allow that to happen.

Perhaps the bill was proposed for the protection of animals? The bill offers protection for animals but it is unreasonable to elevate their protection to the same level as people. The legislation makes it possible for one to be convicted of abusing animals in the same way one would be convicted of abusing a person.

I support the legislation to protect against the abuse of animals, but this legislation imposes serious ramifications regarding animal agriculture.

[Howard Hilstrom, Canadian Alliance, Selkirk—Interlake, MB]

Mr. Speaker, that is precisely the problem. I am sure there are many government members in the backbenches that would also like to have this bill split apart but who know that is not possible because of the whipped vote that will no doubt happen on this.

When bad legislation comes forward in the House, such as some but not all portions of Bill C-15, no member should ever vote for an omnibus bill that includes changes that are 100% opposable, in this case the animal cruelty provision by every farm organization in the country, including the dairy farmers of Canada. The dairy farmers of Canada of course milk cows. Anyone who alleges any kind of cruelty there is way out to lunch, even though I know they have.

I agree that the legislation has to be split into individual votable issues that are unrelated so that the true feeling of parliament is known and constituents are fully and properly represented.

Unfortunately, when there are some good and some bad issues because the government has lumped the issues all together, it leaves us no choice but to throw it all out and then, hopefully in years to come, it will come back with separate legislation for each issue. It should let the Canadian public have a say on each issue as opposed to forcing us to vote for something that is bad and dead wrong.