Bill C-15 (Historical)

Criminal Law Amendment Act, 2001

An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to amend other Acts

Rights Of Children

[Anne McLellan, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, as the right hon. Prime Minister has just said, everyone on this side of the House is ready to pass Bill C-15 this afternoon. Let us do it.

[Vic Toews, Canadian Alliance, Provencher, MB]

Mr. Speaker, the Liberal government is failing Canadian children. It has refused to establish an effective sexual offender registry. Now Bill C-15 has vulnerable children being forced to carry the government's political baggage.

Why will the Minister of Justice not quit playing American style politics and pass the bill on a stand alone basis to protect children?

Parliament Of Canada Act

[John Reynolds, Canadian Alliance, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, BC]

And the private sector also. The issue of MPs' salaries has always been a contentious one. Accordingly, the Canadian Alliance will treat each vote on the bill as a free vote for our members.

The member over there can smile and laugh but that is what the House is all about; it is about integrity and making one's position and one's point with a free vote.

If members of that party over there want to talk about integrity, I would ask them to talk about the minister for multiculturalism and her integrity about flags burning in Prince George. If they want to about integrity, we will talk about that. If they want to talk about integrity, let us talk about Bill C-15 and how they will not split a bill that is very important for all Canadians. We are prepared to do that.

The government also did one thing that was not put in the report by the commission. The commission recommended that it be retroactive to April 1. The government wants it to be January 1. That is greedy and not acceptable. It should be April 1, which is our fiscal year. That would have been fine with members on this side.

It has also been the policy of the Canadian Alliance that our constituents have their say on the issue of MPs' salary increases. Accordingly, we will move at the report stage that the increase, if passed, come into force after the next general election. This fulfils our policy that voters be involved in the issue.

There is a strange twist in Bill C-28, and it is something that I think should be talked about. I have checked for precedent, including with the crucible of our parliamentary system Westminster. I can find no precedent. Bill C-28 calls for an opting in, in order to receive a salary increase. I have heard of opting out, which of course we saw in the issue of MP pensions. However Bill C-28 has an implied threat that if anyone does not sign on in 90 days, then one does not receive the salary increase.

The Prime Minister's threat of a week ago has come home to roost. It is intimidation, which I find unparliamentary. The government, obviously as instructed by the Prime Minister, is entertaining the notion of two classes of MPs. Rather than take the recorded vote as final determination on the bill, and consequently salary increases, the government is holding MPs hostage to another step in the process: sign a document within 90 days of passage of this bill indicating they are opting in or they will receive less than other colleagues.

Even the House leader said that is unacceptable. Nobody in the House should be earning any different from anybody else, yet it is in the bill.

Is this not a form of double jeopardy? It certainly is stealthy politics in an already sensitive and contentious issue. Why would the government want to add further dimension to the issue other than to embarrass certain MPs from certain parties? Passage of a bill on third reading in our parliamentary system is final determination. Does the government have the constitutional right to alter this entrenched process? That is a very good question.

The new way of determining the outcome of articles in legislation may even contravene pay equity. Does the government have the right to establish two classes of MPs? I may not be stretching the point by saying that this opting in initiative may be an affront to parliament itself.

Section 31 of the charter of rights and freedoms states that nothing in the charter extends the legislative powers of any body or authority. Is the government overextending its legislative powers by the addition of this fourth step, the new opting in requirements in Bill C-28?

The nuances of opting out of something as opposed to being forced to opt into something that the majority of parliament may pass is not subtle. It is a dynamic and dramatic departure from legislative precedent and nothing but intimidation and mendacity on the part of the government.

There is an implied threat in Bill C-28 that has no place in our parliament. Politics may ensue during debate on a bill, but I do not believe that a political manipulation should be encapsulated in a bill and then foisted on MPs after passage of a bill. It is a mockery of our process and diminishes the significance of the three stages of the passing of legislation. Why have debate? We could anonymously sign on to any initiative and that would determine the outcome. Has the government become that arrogant?

In view of that clause of the bill, I move:

That the motion be amended by replacing all the words after the word “That” with the following:

“this House declines to give second reading to Bill C-28, an act to amend the Parliament of Canada Act, the Members of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act and the Salaries Act, since the principle of the bill contravenes the spirit of pay equity by establishing a two tier pay scheme for Members of Parliament.”

Justice

[Anne McLellan, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I guess there is one thing we could say, and that is the official opposition is expert when it comes to splitting or dividing.

As I have said on any number of occasions in the House, we are ready to move on Bill C-15. Bill C-15 deals with major amendments to the criminal code. Many of these amendments have been before the House for months. It is unconscionable that those people are playing petty politics with this legislation.

[Vic Toews, Canadian Alliance, Provencher, MB]

Mr. Speaker, Canadians are disturbed by the Liberal partisan politics behind Bill C-15. Debates about the sexual exploitation of children and the treatment of animals should not be lumped together.

Why will the minister not rise above partisan politics and work with the opposition to protect our children?

[Anne McLellan, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, as I have already indicated, we on this side of the House are ready to move on Bill C-15 right now.

I would ask all of you this afternoon to inform our government House leader that you are willing to move on Bill C-15.

[Vic Toews, Canadian Alliance, Provencher, MB]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Minister of Justice advised the House and all Canadians that Bill C-15 dealt only with amendments to the criminal code. She knows that is not correct. The title of the bill itself makes that clear.

Why will the minister not stop playing American style politics and instead work with the opposition to protect children from sexual predators? Why will she not split the bill?

Government Of Canada

[Anne McLellan, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, as I said yesterday in the House, the opposition knows full well that we are ready to move on Bill C-15.

In fact it is the opposition that is stonewalling. It is the opposition that is playing petty politics with Bill C-15. Everyone on this side of the House is ready to move.

Committees Of The House

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Yes, it is. It is perhaps unfortunate that it needed to happen today in the views of some members when the government response is only a couple of days away. It would be preferable, I think, for all in the House to have the government response before we engage in a debate of this nature.

However I could not help but note that a lot of the debate that has occurred here had to do with a statute that is not even the subject matter of the motion. It had to do with a bill we call Bill C-15, a bill to revise the Criminal Code of Canada.

I suggest that the debate we are engaging in on the 14th report of the standing committee is not really what the mover wanted to talk about at all. In fact there are other agendas in place. I have to note as well, as we all will, that we are moving toward the end of a sitting of the House. We are moving toward the end of our work. We are not all finished yet but we certainly have an obvious short list of items that we want to complete within the next week or two. As a result, there are any number of other political agendas being put forward by individual members or political parties.

I heard earlier the oft repeated mantra from across the way that the government is somehow arrogant. Of course, sitting with the government I reject that totally. The government is simply pursuing its legislative agenda, 90% of which has been on the order paper for a very long time. Members opposite know that. I do not mind hearing the mantra of arrogance repeated but I also have to point out that most of the members opposite, in the sense that they continue with the mantra, are simply continuing their membership in the ranks of the perpetually indignant. We all accept that in opposition they do have a role and that they are doing their best to fulfil it today.

I encourage members, if they are interested in the progress of Bill C-15 amending the criminal code, that they direct their attention to that outside the debate here. I do not think it is particularly relevant to the privilege matter that was discussed in the 14th report. I direct members' attention again to the fact that a government response will be tabled in the House within a couple of days and that the reported had been adopted unanimously at committee.

Having said that, I think it is appropriate to move:

That the House do now proceed to orders of the day.

[Peter Adams, Liberal, Peterborough, ON]

Madam Speaker, I listened with great interest to the member for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough. I listened with some sympathy with respect to his discussion of the report, which was actually the topic of the motion.

However, in terms of Bill C-15, and I hope the hon. member will reply to this, it does seem to me that there must be parts of that bill that he has serious concerns about. There are the firearms part, the animal cruelty part and the law enforcement officer part. Generally speaking, I support all three of those components. I have my concerns about some parts of them, but that is normal as legislation moves through the House of Commons.

If the member is so concerned about it, would he now give us an indication of which parts of those individual areas of the legislation he disagrees with?

[Ken Epp, Canadian Alliance, Elk Island, AB]

Madam Speaker, I concur as much as I can possibly concur with what the hon. member has just said.

There is a contempt for members of the opposition and even for backbenchers on the Liberal side that has been shown over and over by the government. Instead of using the ploy of enhancing the salaries of members of parliament in order to try to give them more dignity in the public eye, it is about time that the occasion be used to recognize that members of parliament are elected by their respective constituencies, are here to do a job and should be heard.

I am deeply offended by Bill C-15 and the move the government is making here by mixing into the motion many very good items with a few totally deplorable items. I have used this analogy before: we get a bowl of really nice pudding—I like custard pudding—but in it is a bunch of gravel and we are supposed to eat the whole thing. I am using the example of gravel in order to try to be polite because there are other things that come to mind which the Liberals mix into good parts of a bill.

Bill C-15, the bill under discussion here, in fact has some very good parts, as the member has pointed out, but what has the government done? It has thrown into it things that are totally offensive to most Canadians. The members of parliament on this side and the other side would love to express that, but they cannot because it is all tied together in one big package. It is an all or nothing thing.

The government is doing the same thing with MPs' salaries. There are some good things and a bunch of stuff that is bad. We cannot amend it. The government will not accept it. In its arrogance and its majority here it just does whatever it wants. The Prime Minister acts like a dictator. He says it and it is done. That is very offensive.

I would like to congratulate the member for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough for what he is doing today and I give him 100% support for this motion. I also believe that this report should be accepted. I would like to see the House seized with this issue before any other because of the importance of the protection of our children and our society. I would like the member's comments on that.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Madam Speaker, I commend your wisdom of that point. If the hon. government whip who has just joined us would unplug her ears and plug in her earpiece, she would know very clearly that this is extremely relevant and important, and I invite her to listen to my remarks.

What the opposition, and I suggest many in her own government, would like to see happen is for the minister to simply divide up the omnibus bill and remove two rather controversial elements of the legislation. They would be returned in stand alone form and would advance, if she would agree to this, and improve in their standing and speed in which they would pass in the fall. By doing this, it would allow Canadians to have the benefit of this new legislation which would attach specifically to Internet stalking and pornography being sent around the country in this new way. This very nefarious practice could be addressed by bringing in this type of legislation now.

Why would we hesitate? That is the question that we are left to ponder. Why would the Minister of Justice refuse the opportunity to bring forward this very positive legislation supported by the opposition and by her own government? It seems she simply is doing this out of some defiance or stubbornness because it was an idea that originated on the other side of the House.

This is a practice that unfortunately we see far too often. Ideas somehow on this side of the House are lesser ideas or are ideas that somehow should not be given the same credence; the same way the Prime Minister would have Canadians accept that if members of this side of the House in the opposition do not get down on their knees, kiss his ring, ask for contrition and ask that we be given a pay raise, we do not get it.

This perpetrates again this idea that we have two separate classes of members of parliament. We have those who bow down and support the Prime Minister in his every effort and those who do not for some reason. They try to fulfil their role in opposition legitimately by questioning his ideas and vision, if there is one. This is the type of attitude.

We can talk endlessly about ways to modernize parliament. We can talk about procedural change and the way to empower members of the opposition and backbench Liberals. Yet it is this palace guard, pinnacle top-down approach, which we have seen from the Prime Minister in particular, that squashes that. It absolutely goes against any type of individual thought. It is meant entirely to put down anyone that might have an original idea.

If parliament is supposed to improve its lot, if we are to somehow improve the way in which Canadians view the legitimacy and the relevance of the Chamber, that has to change. Unfortunately, we can do everything in our power to try to change procedurally the way that the House works, but as long as this attitude exists, as long as there is this Prime Minister in place, as long as the PMO is going to view any sort of legitimate dissent or questioning of this unfettered power that has now accrued in the PMO, we are not going to see an improvement of this place. We are not going to see members of parliament encouraged to step forward into the breach on occasion against the power and the winds of change.

This is yet another example. We have a very clear, common sense opportunity to bring forward a piece of legislation that would protect children. It would increase the ability of our justice system to deal with individuals who act violently toward police. It would increase the ability of our justice system to respond appropriately and proportionately to those who engage in the very disturbing practice of harassment, of targeting a person and terrorizing his or her life.

The practice of criminal harassment, colloquially known as stalking, is something that has, for reasons that defy logic, taken on a whole new meaning. Quite frequently we see individuals, usually women, subjected to this very disturbing approach that destabilizes a people's lives. It injects itself into their stability or the way in which they can carry on their normal practices.

Again, this is important legislation. This is the type of bill that should be brought forward with great haste. What is the deterrent? What is blocking our ability to do that? It is the Minister of Justice who has the power and is embodied with the responsibility to protect Canadians in the first instance and to take every opportunity to bring forward this type of legislation.

I commend her for bringing it this far, but we are at the goal line. We are just about to bring the legislation forward through the House, on through the other place, into practice and into being law. Yet the minister, defying all logic, defying all reasonable approach by the opposition, and I suggest by lobbying within her own ranks, is refusing to do so, and is refusing to even answer why.

When questions were posed to her in the House of Commons, she pointed the finger in her academic, professorial way and accusatorially told the opposition that it was playing politics. We are playing politics because we want to support a government bill? That is playing politics? We are trying to bring it in so that it will be the practice to protect Canadians. That is playing politics? She is denying the opposition an opportunity to work with government simply because she feels perhaps this idea is coming from a place outside of her political world, a place outside the government's world, because only good ideas come from the government benches. That is inevitably what we are left to ponder. Why can the opposition not originate a good idea? It can, and I think most Canadians recognize that.

The minister of justice has a lot to answer. She seems, for reasons known only to her, to have dug in and said the government will not bring the bill forward. It will not allow Canadians to have this protective, positive legislation in place before the recess, because it has bigger priorities. It has to get pay raises through. It has to somehow improve its own lot and not that of those who would be affected by this type of criminal activity.

This report speaks volumes. This report came about as a result of the same type of action and pattern of arrogance that Canadians sadly have come to expect and have borne witness to during this government's administration. We saw the minister brought before a committee because of this type of action before, yet it does not seem to have had the desired effect. It does not seem to have made any kind of an imprint on the minister's mind as to why she should perhaps listen on occasion to the opposition and why she might somehow open her eyes to the fact that the opposition is not always out for blood. It is not always out to try in a partisan way to embarrass the government. There are occasions where we simply want to try to support the government. This is just one of those occasions.

This is a bill that very clearly would improve the criminal justice system in the country. All it takes is a little compromise. All it takes is the minister's recognition that to give a little she would get a lot. She would get the support of this party, and I am sure other parties in the House, to bring forward Bill C-15 in a new, revamped way that would attach to these provisions and remove some of the controversial provisions.

As I said before, those issues that deal with firearms and cruelty to animals would return in the fall in a stand alone form, advancing from where they currently sit on the order paper. They would move in a more rapid pace when we return in the fall.

It seems so logical, so common sense, yet the minister has chosen to simply ignore this request, which was first brought forward through the government House leader. She was approached in a number of ways and in a number of forms. I know the member for Provencher wrote to her with a very similar straightforward request and was flatly turned down with no reasons given. That is not accountability and that is not good enough.

The Minister of Justice has something to answer to here. Because of this report, there should be a bit of a sword of Damocles hanging over her head. She has exhibited this type of strident attitude before, ignoring the pleas of the opposition and ignoring the wishes of Canadians who predominantly would support any efforts to bring in legislation that would protect them, their children, their homes and their law enforcement community.

This is the reason behind bringing this matter forward. We in the opposition have on occasion limited opportunity to ask the questions and bring forward legitimate issues. The government sets the agenda to a large extent, particularly the legislative agenda and the priorities.

Again we are left to wonder why is it that we would rush headlong into a bill that enhances our pay and our pensions? Why is that the priority before we go home? Why, in the remaining days of parliament, will members of the House and members of the Senate be dealing with that? Surely it is not consistent with what Canadians expect? Surely this is not where we should be focusing our efforts in the remaining time that we have in the Parliament of Canada. If we have an opportunity of choice between taking a pay raise or helping children, surely the answer is obvious. Why the minister of justice cannot see that and embrace that is beyond comprehension.

I commend the Minister of Justice for coming before the committee and making proper apologies. She admitted there was something wrong. She was prepared to make changes to ensure that this type of practice would not occur again. Yet at the very first instance, when an occasion arose where the minister could show a little understanding and willingness to compromise and work with the opposition not against it on behalf of Canadians on a very legitimate issue, her bill, she did not.

This is not something that originates from the opposition side. We simply are saying to the minister “Let us pass the bill. Let us get this legislation through quickly”. We want to work with her and support the legislation because it is such a positive initiative.

However, no, it does not seem like that will happen, and why? We have not heard from the minister yet. I guess the response is just because, much like the Prime Minister, because the government can. Why do animals do certain things to themselves? Because they can. As vulgar as that may sound that appears to be the response we get. There is no response because the power is there to do so and therefore the government is prepared to exercise it.

That is what enrages opposition members. That is what offends Canadians. They see that members of the Parliament of Canada cannot work together on such positive issues as protecting children and improving the way in which our justice system works. What is more fundamental than that? What is more important than that? Surely it is not pay raises. Surely it is not the way in which we can improve our own lot in life. We are elected to come here to bring forward important pieces of legislation that would do very good things.

With that, my time has expired. We would hope that we might hear at some point from the government at least, if not the minister herself, as to why this seemingly indefensible position has been taken by the minister and her department.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Madam Speaker, I move that the 14th report of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, presented to the House on Wednesday, May 9, be concurred in.

This particular report, as many will recall, came about as a result of the actions, not personally on the part of the Minister of Justice but more so within her department and the decision that was taken to release information about Bill C-15 that is currently before the House. The information was provided to members of the media in the form of a briefing to which members of parliament were not invited, nor were members of their staff.

It resulted in a complaint and a point of privilege that was raised on March 14 by the hon. member for Provencher. The question was deemed to be a breach of privilege by the Speaker at the time and it led to a referral to the procedure and House affairs committee where there was some deliberation which resulted in the minister herself and members of the staff appearing before the committee.

It was truly an affront I believe to all members of parliament that the minister in her wisdom and her department decided to exclude members of parliament from information on a bill which can be deemed fairly important and substantive. It takes the form of an omnibus bill, which means there are number of pieces of legislation that are put together in somewhat of an artificial form, I would suggest, in this instance because the amendments to the criminal code are completely unrelated. This is what has caused a lot of concern for members of the opposition and, I suspect, there are members on the government side who are equally uncomfortable with how the bill appears before this Chamber.

I would deem the legislation itself to be very important. It touches upon such issues as stalking and increasing the penalties that would be attached to that. It deals specifically with and creates a new offence for criminal harassment on the Internet and approaches, in a new and innovative way, the manner in which our current criminal procedure can attach to those who choose this nefarious means to harass and to stalk, in particular, children, and the availability of pornography on the Internet and the way that is dispersed.

What really offends members of the Progressive Conservative Party is that we are faced with an opportunity to bring this type of legislation into the House of Commons to pass before the recess. The Minister of Justice, for reasons perhaps known only to her, is dragging her feet on this in denying the House and thereby denying the country the ability to bring the legislation forward.

The opposition stance has been consistent in the past number of weeks which is that within the omnibus bill there are very controversial provisions that deal specifically with cruelty to animals. That is not to suggest for a moment that this type of legislation is not needed as well. It is a matter for which all members of parliament are concerned but there are elements of the bill dealing with cruelty to animals and with firearms that have caused some consternation throughout the country. Members specifically are concerned on behalf of their constituents about how this will affect legitimate professions and practices as it relates to animals, trappers, hunters and cattlemen. Those who are dealing daily, as part of their profession, with animals are very concerned about how these new criminal code provisions and amendments will affect them and their livelihood.

For that reason, there has to be an opportunity to examine in detail and hear from some of these witnesses at that committee. That opportunity would come through committee.

The reality, in terms of how the procedure could unfold, is the minister has been given a very legitimate offer from the opposition to sever out parts of this omnibus bill and bring it back in the fall when the entire bill under the current schedule will be revisited. Certain sections of that bill could be taken out. Then the Internet pornography sections, specifically the stalking provisions that would increase the current criminal sanctions for stalking, could be dealt with. This initiative was taken by Senator Oliver in the other place and is one that he pursued vigorously over the past number of years. Suffice it to say that the Progressive Conservative Party is very supportive of that provision and others.

It would also increase the sentences, specifically creating a new offence for disarming a police officer.

I know, Madam Speaker, you have more than just a passing knowledge and understanding of these types of bills and omnibus pieces of legislation. However, what has happened and what is offensive is the minister has decided to force feed the entire bill to the House of Commons. In a very strident and stubborn way she has said that she refuses to take out those sections which attach controversy and raise the ire of many in the country. Therefore, she is willing to stand pat and let the entire legislation be deferred and stalled on the order paper until next fall.

In plain speak, that is not good enough. Members of the opposition do not accept this. When we look at the priorities of the government, we are left only to wonder as to why we would be rushing headlong toward bringing in a piece of legislation which would increase our remuneration. When we have an opportunity to bring in a very positive piece of legislation that is supported by all members of the opposition, and obviously members of the government, by simply making a very small concession, I would suggest that would lead a piece of legislation—

Justice

[Anne McLellan, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. member is right. Canadians do know who is playing politics, and that is all the opposition parties over there.

We have made it absolutely plain that Bill C-15 deals with nothing more than amendments to the criminal code. Many of these amendments to the criminal code were in fact introduced before the last election.

There is no excuse for all those learned men and women on that side of the House not to work with us to move the bill forward quickly.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, by splitting Bill C-15 and removing the very controversial animal cruelty and firearms provisions much good would flow. Children would be given greater protection from demented Internet stalkers. We could have some tough new provisions introduced through the criminal code.

Why has the justice minister dug in her heels and refused to allow quick passage of very positive criminal code amendments? Clearly Canadians know who is playing politics here. It is the very stubborn minister of justice.