Bill C-39 (Historical)

Yukon Act

An Act to replace the Yukon Act in order to modernize it and to implement certain provisions of the Yukon Northern Affairs Program Devolution Transfer Agreement, and to repeal and make amendments to other Acts

Yukon Act

[Reed Elley, Canadian Alliance, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to rise today to speak to Bill C-39, an act to replace the Yukon Act. Let me put on the record that the Canadian Alliance will be offering support for the bill. The underlying principle of the devolution of power to the territory of Yukon is certainly one that we can support, and it perhaps is long overdue.

While we offer our support, we also have questions and concerns that will need to be addressed by the minister, departmental officials and, most important, representatives from Yukon itself.

In reading the act, I see that there are three main features: first, to implement provisions under the devolution transfer agreement; second, to recognize the existence of responsible government in Yukon; and third, to make a number of consequential amendments to other federal acts.

I am not concerned at this point with the latter one, but as we debate both in the House of Commons and at committee, I am certain the details of the amendments to the other acts will naturally be determined and derived out of the clause by clause discussion at the standing committee.

As we look at the first two features, I believe that members of the House should be sure that as they go through the bill they understand it and that we do it well.

I am pleased that the devolution transfer agreement has been agreed to by the Yukon government, the first nations of Yukon and the federal government. I believe that this is an area of specific interest to all parties in the House and that we will therefore devote some of our time and energies to looking at this.

As I understand the context of the bill at this time, the devolution agreement is to be consistent with the long standing objective of successive governments to transfer provincial type programs and responsibilities to a territorial government.

One critical goal of this objective is that with the transfer of responsibilities to the Yukon government the authority and accountability must also be transferred. This can take place through a staged process, but the end objective of the devolution of powers must include both responsibility and authority. To offer the responsibility of power without the authority to back it up would prove to be fruitless and pointless to any future Yukon government.

For instance, I have questions about the Canada-Yukon formula financing agreement and how it will work. As I currently understand the legislation, Yukon would now collect all royalties, rentals, dues, fees or other charges previously collected by the northern affairs program for these programs. Yet the federal government would continue to pay approximately $34 million annually for the administration and control of land and resources in Yukon from funds previously allocated to the northern affairs program.

While I support the premise that Yukon should become more financially independent, I also want to ensure that all Canadian taxpayers benefit under the agreement. I will want to better understand from the minister and departmental officials how this portion of the agreement fits and compares with the current transfer agreement with the provinces. Of course, to do that we need much more information on this particular subject.

The area that I wish to explore at further length today, and which my colleagues and I will follow most closely is the second feature; the recognition of responsible government and all that the term entails.

The documents refer to the conventions of responsible government being similar in principle to those of Canada. While I understand that there are legal definitions attached to these phrases, let us remember that these words also have meaning to the citizens of both Yukon and indeed all Canadians.

As this is a tripartite agreement signed by the Yukon government, the Council of Yukon First Nations and the Canadian government, I believe that we should further explain and confirm what should be included under the term responsible government. Furthermore, these basics tenants should apply equally to all three parties of the agreement.

Responsible government must first reflect to whom it is responsible. From our point of view, it is and must be responsible to those it governs. Under the act, these would be the citizens of Yukon, Yukon first nations and then all Canadians.

The citizens of these three jurisdictions are the voters and taxpayers for each of these levels of government. Without the citizens and their respect, the government has no jurisdiction.

While many in the Chamber could add particulars to the much needed aspects of responsible government, accountability must be primary. Accountability may be discerned in many different ways, including governmental, financial and electoral.

For government to be accountable to the people it must be transparent. The decision making process must be clear for all to see and follow. This does not mean that everyone will like the final decisions, but it does mean that the rationale will be obvious for all to see.

Government decisions should not be based on special interest groups, favours or personal gain. Rather government decisions must be made that reflect the will and the needs of the people. Nor does it mean that some of these decisions will be easy. I am sure all my hon. colleagues in the Chamber know that many of the decisions we made may not always be popular, but they have to be made. They are often very difficult decisions made in the best interests of all Canadians.

I must say that one of the greatest concerns many of us in the opposition ranks have had is the transparency of the federal government in decision making processes. When members of the House are not able to follow the process, it is virtually impossible for members of the public to likewise see transparency in many government decisions. I sincerely trust this is not what the government is intending when it refers to the responsible governments similar in principle to that of Canada. Surely the Yukon government will start off in a better way than we often see displayed by the government in Ottawa where transparency is often not forthcoming.

There is also the aspect of financial accountability. There can be no greater control over the people than what a government does with the revenues derived from its citizens. Whether we like it or not, fiscal policy can be used to greatly assist citizens or seriously harm them. The best intentions of special interest groups, political alignments and even the government itself can have major impacts upon the decision making process.

I ask and even challenge the governments, which have signed the tripartite agreement, to analyze their roles and influences in light of financial decisions and fiscal accountability. Are they making decisions based on sound fiscal foundations both now and in the future? Will their decisions stand up to the test of time? In a free and democratic country such as Canada, no one government will be in power forever. Others will follow along and decisions will be reviewed and challenged. Ensure that decisions now will be viewed by the majority as being based on sound and transparent fiscal foundations.

Furthermore, the act specifies that the federal Minister of Indians Affairs and Northern Development will consult with the executive council in respect of proposed amendments in the future. Once again, we will hope that consultations will actually result in positive change and not just rhetoric. All too often in the past many Canadians in their own particular consultations with government have come to the conclusion that the consultations do not really change anything if the government has made up its mind.

For instance, during the Nisga'a debate over 1,200 submissions were made to the government, none of which changed the final agreement. Imagine what that does to the citizens of a country who try to make some kind of impact upon government only to find that in actuality the government did not listen to them. We hope that is the standard for future consultations and that there will be open and honest debate reflecting the needs and concerns of its citizens in the Yukon government.

One particular aspect of the act that I am pleased to see is the preference by Yukon first nations is to settle all land claims before the devolution of power to the Yukon government is implemented. With the current plan to implement the new Yukon act by April 1, 2003, there is a need to move these settlement negotiations along. I believe there is sufficient time to reach the goal, but certainly the negotiations should not be delayed at all. I encourage all parties involved to actively pursue this goal, keeping in mind the need to reach a settlement that is affordable, achieves finality and meets the needs of all parties and their respective citizens.

This is a large bill and will have an effect on every single person living in Yukon. It will affect the employees of the northern affairs program and the Yukon government as well. While I generally believe that this is a positive move, I believe that all members of the House need to proceed cautiously to ensure that all aspects and conditions under the act have been fully considered.

There are a number of positive aspects to the bill. For instance, I am pleased that the powers granted under the act resemble provincial powers as outlined in the Canadian constitution. I can think of nothing better than to work toward the independence of Yukon as a province in due time. We will be very pleased to see it take its place alongside the other 10 provinces of this great country in the years to come.

I am pleased that the devolution of power under this act will cause the cessation of operations of the northern affairs program in Yukon. It has been the belief of the Canadian Alliance and our predecessor, the Reform Party, that the Indian and Northern Affairs Canada should be phased out over a period of time. In our opinion, this move in Yukon is a very promising first step toward that goal.

Recently, the leader of the official opposition spoke with Premier Duncan of Yukon and expressed our party's position on this act. I am pleased to hear of the Yukon government's support for this act as well.

I also have a few concerns about the bill. I trust the government will be willing and open in its anticipated briefings, its appearances before the standing committee and during debate in the House to listen to and accept all appropriate amendments that are proposed by hon. members from all sides. It would be reassuring to see the government actually actively consulting and implementing changes that would improve this bill rather than just proceeding without due care and attention.

I would like to hear if the government has a plan regarding the application by Yukon to apply for and achieve full provincial status. Obviously, the territory is coming closer to achieving this. Will this legislation speed up or slow down the application process?

The background of the bill clearly states that Yukon will be deriving powers parallel to those outlined for provinces in the Canadian constitution. I will be very interested to hear comments from the minister and members of his department on this issue in particular when they appear before the standing committee.

I will ask the government to further clarify the financial arrangements, whereby Yukon will receive new taxation funds to a maximum of $3 million annually. My understanding is that these are funds that the federal government previously received. While these various taxes are applied to primarily natural resources belonging to Yukon, it is also my understanding that Indian and Northern Affairs Canada funds will also be redirected to Yukon.

While I support the move for Yukon to achieve financial independence, I believe that the governments involved must provide further clarity on this particular financial agreement. Yukon should retain the taxation revenues derived from its own resources and should not incur financial hardships due to this devolution of power. However, it appears that the federal government of course will be losing revenue and not decreasing its corresponding expenses. Somehow the minister should offer clarification in this matter as it goes before committee.

My last concern today regarding the bill specifically is whether or not the bill can actually be changed. All too often in the recent past legislation has come before the House for debate but the bottom line is that no changes can or will be made to the legislation especially if proposed by the opposition. The duly elected members of the House of Commons can debate this bill forever, but if no changes can be made to the agreement, our debate really amounts to nothing more than empty rhetoric.

I would like to take this opportunity to broaden the debate out generally to the minister and the Department of Indian affairs and Northern Development. I must give credit where credit is due. I am generally pleased with the more approachable aspect of the minister and his departmental staff in recent months.

However, as I am certain that my colleagues on this side of the House will attest, it is difficult to speak to such an important bill without sufficient time to study the bill itself. On Friday my office received a five inch binder. The departmental staff did a good job of compiling the information regarding the legislation and the related items in it. However to receive and speak indepth on a bill as important as this one without the opportunity to fully research the bill shows somehow a lack of trust on the part of the government.

The bill refers to changes for employees from federal to Yukon status and the procedure for this to occur.

There are all kinds of things in here for which we needed the time to sit down, read and digest before we came to the House with them. Might I suggest that it would be in everyone's best interest to introduce the bill into the House of Commons, set departmental briefings with all those who want them and therefore ensure that all interested members of the House, particularly the opposition, are able to speak knowledgeably. If the House truly wants open and full debate, then the government must do its part to ensure that all members are given the tools to perform their tasks adequately.

The legislation affords me the opportunity to talk on the issue of consultations. Full and complete consultations are needed with all parties affected by the agreement. The government indicates that it has had those discussions. I look forward to hearing from the other parties involved in this agreement in order to ascertain that all parties agree with the government's perspective on consultations.

As I close, I wish to confirm my party's position on the bill. We see several advantages and progressive moves forward under the legislation. We also have a number of questions that require answers, clarifications or perhaps amendments. We are willing to lend our conditional support to the bill at this time and look forward to discussing it more fully in committee.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the opposition for giving its unanimous consent. Since I have been in the House the opposition has always been very positive when I bring forward the aspirations of Yukoners and I very much appreciate this.

The bill is a bold step forward to a better future for all Yukoners. At such a forward looking time in our history, it would be remiss of me not to acknowledge my predecessors in this place, former members for Yukon: the Hon. George Black, Martha Louise Black, James Aubrey Simmons, the Hon. Erik Nielsen, the Hon. Audrey McLaughlin and Louise Hardy, all of whom have played a role in the political evolution of Yukon.

I would like to make it clear that Bill C-39 has a wide cross-section of support from Yukoners. The act is a result of extensive consultations with Yukon residents which began in 1996. We spent the past five years consulting and negotiating with the Yukon government and with first nations. Successive drafts of the bill were shared and discussed with our territorial partners throughout the negotiations. We have taken the necessary time to ensure that the bill protects and promotes the needs and interests of all parties.

I am pleased to report that the Yukon government and the Council of Yukon First Nation chiefs support proceeding with the Yukon devolution initiative. This essential milestone paved the way to the agreement which was signed by Yukon premier Pat Duncan and the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development on behalf of Canada. It is now up to parliament to turn over comprehensive new powers to Yukon where the powers rightfully belong.

The new Yukon act would give effect to a number of provisions negotiated in the devolution transfer agreement. It would give the Yukon legislature lawmaking powers to manage land, water and other resources.

The bill would also modernize legislation to reflect the existence of responsible government in Yukon and the structure and responsibilities of public institutions consistent with current practices.

Let me explain what that means in practical terms. If approved, the bill will transfer the lawmaking powers over most of the public lands and resources, including forests, mines and minerals, in addition to water rights in the territory to the Yukon legislature. This will result in the Yukon government having decision making powers over matters fundamental to the economic well-being of the territory.

Once devolution takes effect, proposed for April 1, 2003, the Yukon government will have the necessary financial resources to carry out its work. The Yukon will collect the royalties, rentals, dues, service fees and other charges currently collected by the Department of Indian affairs and Northern Development. The agreement also ensures that the Yukon government will receive a net fiscal benefit from these new resource revenues.

Land and resource management responsibilities are in many ways the most important component of the devolution process because this places development decisions in the hands of the people most knowledgeable about local conditions and those most affected by the consequences of those decisions: northerners.

Devolution of these powers also acknowledges that local residents have a vested interest in and a commitment to sustainable development. They recognize that responsible management of the north's wealth of resources means ensuring that as development proceeds, the full impact on people, their communities and the environment are all taken into account.

The devolution transfer agreement sets out detailed understandings reached with the Yukon government and first nations on various aspects of the transfer of power. We have resolved a wide range of complex issues and overcome a number of obstacles to reach this agreement.

Certain Yukon first nations would prefer to see their land claims settled before we transfer the lawmaking powers to Yukon. That is why the Yukon devolution transfer agreement contains protection measures for Yukon first nations that have not yet completed land claim agreements. Just this weekend another first nation went through the process to ratify its agreement.

I believe the people of Yukon have waited long enough for these important powers. We all know that local control leads to empowerment and development. We also know that it must be carefully balanced to protect the rights and interests of all the parties involved.

I can assure the House that this agreement is fully consistent with the land claims and self-government agreements in Yukon, with the constitution of Canada, with responsible environmental practice and with fiscal management.

The process which enabled us to achieve this accomplishment embodies the spirit and partnership laid out in “Gathering Strength--Canada's Aboriginal Action Plan”.

The Yukon devolution transfer agreement stipulates that Yukon first nation governments will continue to have jurisdiction over natural resource management on settlement lands. This agreement includes a number of bilateral arrangements and commitments for joint action between the Yukon government and first nations.

I am confident that these arrangements will lead to further enhanced government relationships between the territorial government and first nation governments in Yukon.

I also want to point out that the agreement contains measures to ensure that first nation rights and interests are not derogated and not abrogated by the transfer of powers to the Yukon government.

The Government of Canada will continue to have a fiduciary relationship with the aboriginal peoples of Yukon.

Finally, existing third party rights and interests issued under federal legislation up to the date of devolution will be continued undiminished by the Yukon government.

Until now the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development has been performing many provincial type powers in the north. After devolution the department's northern affairs program will cease most of its operations in Yukon. It will, however, retain responsibility for the existing contaminated mine sites.

Consequently, the federal resource management acts, namely the Yukon Quartz Mining Act, the Yukon Placer Mining Act, the Yukon Waters Act, will all be repealed. The Territorial Lands Act, which currently applies to the three territories, will no longer be applicable in Yukon. The Yukon Surface Rights Board Act will also be repealed at a future date.

The Yukon government will pass its own legislation to mirror the federal acts which will be repealed under the new legislation. The repeal of the federal acts and bringing into force the Yukon government's acts will be synchronized to ensure that the transfer is seamless.

With the passage of the bill, the Yukon government, in consultation with first nations, will be free to develop different resource legislation to reflect its own unique priorities.

I mentioned at the outset that the new Yukon act would provide lawmaking powers to the Yukon legislature over land and resources. These powers are similar to those of a province under the Constitution Act, 1867. Changes being proposed in this package will not change the constitutional status of the Yukon territory. It will continue to be a territory of Canada and the federal government will retain its authority in areas of international and national interest.

Title to public lands and waters will remain vested with the federal crown. Should it be necessary, the bill sets out a process to take back the administration and control of public land in the national interest, such as the creation of national parks or a conclusion of land claims.

The federal government will also continue to hold responsibility in such areas as environmental assessment and remediation of health and safety hazards, as well as the costs associated with environmental remediation at mine sites where these hazards were created prior to the date of devolution.

I mentioned earlier that the operations of the Department of Indian affairs and Northern Development in Yukon will be significantly reduced after the bill comes into effect. I am pleased to note that the measures have been taken to ensure the fair treatment of the federal public service.

Approximately 240 indeterminate federal employees currently working in the northern affairs program will receive permanent job offers from the Yukon government at a position, salary and compensation package comparable to their current federal levels. The provisions in the agreement meet all the requirements outlined in the workforce adjustment agreements between the treasury board and the public service unions. This means that federal employees who now make their home in Yukon will be able to continue to work and live in the territory. Equally important, their corporate knowledge and experience in the programs areas being transferred to the Yukon government will prove invaluable as it assumes these new responsibilities.

I can assure the House that given the lead time until the new act comes into force, in the spring of 2003, that we are working with our partners to ensure a smooth transition for industry, for the general public and for our employees. Government business in Yukon will continue uninterrupted.

As well, the Yukon government will continue to provide land and resource management services in both official languages, at the current level of service.

As important as the various clauses in the bill are pertaining to the devolution transfer agreement, other proposed legislative changes are also of high symbolic value to the people and the government of Yukon. They send a clear signal to Canadians to recognize the legitimacy of their government and have full confidence in their ability and responsibility to manage their affairs. They reinforce the fact that the Yukon government has taken on increasingly greater levels of responsibility and proven its capacity to administer territorial affairs. They acknowledge that there is responsible government in Yukon with a system of government similar in principle to that of Canada.

These provisions in the Yukon bill would bring the legislative framework into line with what has been common practice in Yukon for the last 20 years.

Consistent with governments elsewhere in the country, the bill would extend the term of the assembly from four years to five years, and would provide for the dissolution of the assembly by the commissioner rather than by order of governor in council.

The bill would modernize the powers of the Yukon legislature consistent with the objective of successive governments to transfer all remaining provincial type programs and responsibilities to territorial governments. The bill would also change the names of public institutions. For example, the council would be renamed the legislative assembly and the commissioner in council would be renamed the legislature of Yukon. The legislation would also formalize the practice that the commissioner of Yukon will act with the consent of the executive council, consistent with the conventions of representative and responsible government in Canada.

The package of increased powers and legislative changes in front of the House recognize that the people of Yukon have valuable contributions to make to the social, economic and political fabric of Canada and provides them with the tools to get on with the job.

In conclusion, I am tremendously proud of the bill. It fulfills our promise to provide teeth to modern governments in the north. It solidifies the structures that reflect the priorities of the territorial government and helps to set the stage for positive, constructive relationships across government in Yukon for decades to come. The bill would create certainty and establish conditions for further economic development and prosperity. It would reinforce environmental stewardship, a key to sustainable development in Canada's north.

Most of all, the new Yukon Act underscores our commitment to nation building and affirms our determination to put decision making powers into the hands of northerners. It reinforces our conviction that the key to building a strong, prosperous communities is to foster local solutions to local challenges.

This is a long-awaited bill, Mr. Speaker. The legitimate aspirations of the residents of Yukon will start to assume concrete form with the passage of this bill.

After decades of trying to advance these goals, I am sure we all agree that the time has come to turn good intentions into concrete actions. I call on my hon. colleagues to adopt Bill C-39 so we can get on with the work of creating a strong Yukon and, in turn, a better Canada for all of us.

Masi Cho. Gunalchish.

[Bob Nault, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

moved that Bill C-39, an act to replace the Yukon Act in order to modernize it and to implement certain provisions of the Yukon Northern Affairs Program Devolution Transfer Agreement, and to repeal and make amendments to other acts, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Mr. Speaker, this is a very important piece of legislation.There has been one constant since I assumed this portfolio and that is my commitment to change. I have been resolute in my determination to forge a new relationship with the people of Canada's north, a relationship that respects the proven capacity of northerners to manage their own affairs.

Mr. Speaker, as a northerner yourself, you would understand that those of us who are from the near north have always wanted more input. This very much follows the belief that northerners, given the opportunity, can create that new partnership that would see the northern territories evolve into self-managed and prosperous regions that would make strong contributions to the Canadian federation.

This partnership would recognize that governance, economic development and environmental stewardship in the north should reflect the priorities of the people who live there. A responsible partnership would carefully balance the interests of aboriginal and non-aboriginal residents of the region, promoting sustainable development and increasing the accountability of northern governments to their constituents. An inclusive partnership would empower northern people to exercise political independence, putting an end to the error where decisions about northern resources were determined by public servants in Ottawa.

I have the honour of being able to fulfill those promises and turn ideals into reality. It is with great pride that I rise before the House today to talk about the legislation that would demonstrate in a real way our commitment to putting Yukoners in control of decisions most important to the future of the territory.

I will be speaking briefly because I asked for unanimous consent of the House of Commons last week to allow my colleague from Yukon to deliver the majority of the speech. It is quite fitting that it should be a Yukoner, a northerner who was directly involved in making sure that the bill got to this place to complete the development of the kind of relationship I am talking about. Shortly I will be seeking unanimous consent to allow my colleague from Yukon to deliver his most important speech since he was elected to the House of Commons.

Bill C-39, the Yukon Act, would start the new century with a new way of governing the Yukon territory. We would deliver on our pledge to accelerate the devolution of provincial-like powers and responsibilities to the Yukon government by transferring the administration and controls of lands, water and resources.

We would bring the existing act, last overhauled in 1953, into the 21st century, formalizing in law what is current practice and reflecting the existence of representative and responsible government in Yukon. With unanimous consent of the House I would now like to hand things over to my hon. colleague from Yukon.

Business of the House

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Minister of State and Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the House leader of the official opposition for the question. This afternoon we will continue the prebudget debate that we commenced this morning.

Tomorrow we will deal with the miscellaneous statute law amendment bill introduced earlier today. I understand there is some agreement pursuant to the usual process of passing the bill at all stages. We will then consider report stage and third reading of Bill C-33, the Nunavut bill.

I wish to advise the House that there will be a royal assent later this afternoon on Bill C-11.

Next week we will debate Bill C-39, the Yukon bill. That will be followed by report stage and third reading of Bill C-10, the marine parks bill. When this is completed we will turn to Bill S-31, respecting a number of international tax treaties. If and when Bill C-35 is reported from committee we will turn to its report stage and third reading.

I would like to report to the House that if we have time next week I will be prepared to entertain a second day of prebudget debate or consultation.

I understand that some members will be producing a motion to defer a debate until next week. I am awaiting that process.

I also wish to inform the House that there is ongoing consultation among House leaders, although not quite complete, about having a take note debate next week, possibly on the issue of the World Trade Organization and international trade generally. Those consultations are not yet complete.

Yukon Act

[Bob Nault, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

moved for leave to introduce Bill C-39, an act to replace the Yukon Act in order to modernize it and to implement certain provisions of the Yukon Northern Affairs Program Devolution Transfer Agreement, and to repeal and make amendments to other acts.

(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed)

Eldorado Nuclear Limited Reorganization And Divestiture Act

[Bev Desjarlais, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak on Bill C-3, an act to amend the Eldorado Nuclear Limited Reorganization and Divestiture Act and the Petro-Canada Public Participation Act.

I do not think there has been any doubt where the New Democratic Party is on the bill. It was indicated yesterday by speakers from our party that we intend to oppose the bill.

I just want to give a bit of a summary for Canadians who are listening to what is happening in the House. I am pleased to indicate that when I go around my riding there are a number of people who watch what goes on in the House, so it is important that we take the time to have some discussion in debate and to maybe let Canadians know exactly what is entailed in the different bills that come before the House.

The bill relates to the mandatory provisions in the articles of Cameco Corporation, formerly Eldorado Nuclear Limited and Petro-Canada. Bill C-3 was first introduced in the 36th parliament as Bill C-39 and subsequently died on the order paper with the dissolution of parliament in the fall of 2000 for that wonderful election time.

The enactment provides that articles of Cameco Corporation will have to contain a 15% individual non-resident share ownership limit for voting shares, as well as a cap on aggregate non-resident share ownership voting rights of 25%. It stipulates that the articles of Petro-Canada will have to be amended to allow for a 20% individual share ownership limit, while the aggregate non-resident share ownership limits will be eliminated.

In addition, the prohibition of the sale, transfer or disposal of all or substantially all of Petro-Canada's upstream and downstream assets will be replaced with a similar prohibition on the sale, transfer or disposal of all or substantially all of its assets without distinguishing between the upstream and downstream sectors of the activity.

I am sure that left a lot of people out there guessing just what the heck we were talking about. The bottom line is that once again it is the sell off of Canadian resources to foreign companies with no other party in the House speaking out against it except the New Democratic Party.

Yesterday the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Natural Resources made some comments about it not being a big worry because there was only a certain percentage of foreign shares in Petro-Canada. Even though it could be as high as 20%, there are a mere 6% or thereabouts that are under foreign shares. We are going to open the door wide and say that we are for sale.

Petro-Canada, the last hold on any kind of control over that energy resource in Canada, is up for sale. We are going to throw it out on the open market. This is the last opportunity for any kind of control, as limited as it is, because the previous federal governments put it up for sale like they did with so many of our other very important national programs.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Natural Resources indicated that he did not see it as a big issue, that he did not see anyone buying it and that it would still be controlled by Canada. People will have to excuse me for not having much faith in that because that was the same argument the previous governments used for CN and CP, and will probably be the same one this government will use for our airline industry. Little by little it is chipping away and saying that Canada is for sale. Canadians will no longer have control over our important resources and programs. Therefore I obviously have very little faith in that.

When it was indicated that I would get an opportunity to speak today, I reviewed the debates that took place yesterday. I was extremely impressed with my hon. colleague for Palliser and I want to thank him for his in-depth speech. If anyone wants to really get the true picture of what is going on, one needs only refer to yesterday's Hansard and read the hon. member for Palliser's comments, his experiences and the situations that are out there.

As I read his comments, as well as some of my other colleagues' comments, I also had the opportunity to read the comments of one of the Alliance members. I was shaking my head and thought that this is truly the form of the Alliance. It was the ultimate double speak that I had ever read at any one point, and I want to make reference to it.

I have been quite surprised that politicians literally speak out of both sides of their mouths. They are in favour of this or that because they want to use their householders or ten percenters and have everyone on their side. The bottom line is there are differences. We cannot always be on everybody's side because there are times when there are important issues and politicians want to be there for Canadians and support what is beneficial for them. A politician does not want to get every vote. There are principles involved.

I want to reflect on the double speak from yesterday. It was the member for Athabasca who was speaking. His comments were:

I am pleased to see that the legislation is mindful of the possible consequence of high levels of foreign ownership of uranium resources.

The New Democratic Party has always been concerned over the possible consequences of foreign ownership of our very important natural resources. The Alliance member is acknowledging that, but then goes on to say:

The lower limits on Comeco shares reflect across the board government restrictions on foreign activity in uranium mining.

He is saying that because we do not allow more foreign shares to be sold that is a real issue. That means we have to be concerned about foreign shares, but then we are concerned that we cannot sell them. He goes on to say:

While the Canadian Alliance is all for Canadian businesses having all the opportunities to succeed, we must also be conscious of the need to keep such potentially volatile resources within Canadian control.

He used the words volatile resources in Canadian control. Then his next line is:

The bill allows for greater flexibility in the selling of shares in Canadian companies, and I support that effort.

Has anyone ever heard more double speak in such few short paragraphs? It got better when he went on to talk about Petro-Canada and basically said much of the same thing.

I say to parliamentarians and to all Canadians that uranium is a volatile resource but so are our oil and gas resources. Are they not crucial resources to Canada? Should we not be concerned over the total sell off of those resources to foreign companies?

I wonder if members of the Alliance, Liberals or Conservatives believe that it is okay if they are bought up by Americans? There is a serious risk in selling off our resources in totality to any foreign company. We as Canadians must retain control of those resources.

I would like Canadians to recognize the type of doublespeak that goes on here and to emphasize the importance that the New Democratic Party places on having Canadians controlling our natural resources. We felt that way about our railways, our airlines and our water because they were serious issues.

When I hear this kind of doublespeak from members of other parties, I wonder how they would protect our water resources. Would they do things any differently when all they can see in their minds is the ideology of privatization? Their answer is that everything is for sale.

I am sure that if they could find out how to privatize the sweat off somebody's back and make a profit from it, and they do those kind of things anyway through their labour legislation, they would figure that is okay too. They believe anything can be privatized. It is time that members of parliament and all Canadians take a serious look at the drastic consequences of allowing open season on all our natural resources.

[Deepak Obhrai, Canadian Alliance, Calgary East, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to rise on behalf of the constituents of Calgary East to talk about Bill C-3 pertaining to Eldorado Nuclear Limited Reorganization and also to Petro-Canada Public Participation Act, Bill C-39.

Basically the bill allows both companies greater access to sell themselves and to get more outside shares.

The Canadian Alliance has no problem with the bill as such. Our natural resources critic will allay whatever fears he has when the bill goes to committee. We will be supporting the bill as it now stands.

The bill also talks about Petro-Canada and the attempt by the government to increase individual share ownership and remove non-resident ownership. I wish to draw attention to the oil sector as we are talking about Petro-Canada.

Sometime last summer the Calgary caucus, the members of parliament from Calgary, showed through calculations how much money the federal government was taking from Canadians through taxes on gasoline. It was interesting. We highlighted that there was a tax on a tax. The GST on gasoline was a tax on a tax. The government levied the excise tax and whatever the other taxes were, and then the GST came in on top of every other tax.

We came out and said that it was double taxation and it should be removed. We called on the federal government to reduce taxes on gasoline. This was a cry that went out when gas prices went up.

When gas prices went up the government resisted reducing taxes, despite what we showed them. It did so because it was reaping benefits from the tax on gasoline prices. Who was benefiting from increasing gas prices? The federal government. It benefited because of the way the tax structure is set up on gasoline. As prices and the excise tax went up, the 7% GST on top of that started to reap windfall profits.

At no time did the government think it necessary to return the money it was getting, the windfall profits, back to the taxpayer by reducing taxes. No, the government kept the money.

Then the government tried to offer what I will call a band-aid solution to the rise in heating oil prices. My colleague from the Conservative Party indicated to the government that it was a very ill-conceived program.

Let me give an example. I got over 50 calls to my office from Canadians talking about their heating bills and how unfair they were. People say that when the government wants money from them, it takes the money right away through Revenue Canada with no questions asked. However when it comes time to give the money back the government brings in a stupid, ill thought program

Here is what happened. The government decided that those eligible for the GST refund would receive the rebate. Just for a second let us think about the GST refund. It is the goods and services tax imposed uniformly across the country. That is fine. We can understand the government giving GST rebates across the country.

The government is now trying to give money to homeowners, a segment which is not uniform across the country, but which needs money to pay for heating costs. Suddenly people who did not pay heating costs and had no heating bills were receiving the cheques. Those who paid heating costs were not receiving the cheques. Children were receiving the cheques while parents, who paid the heating bills, were not. Naturally they phoned our offices to say it was unfair.

Another point is that the GST rebate is based on the previous year's income. In this case it was based upon income from 1999. The heating oil crisis is in the year 2001, not 1999. Why is the government basing the rebate on the year 1999? There were changes in 2000 where people were not earning the same amount of money and needed help. However they did not qualify because their income from 1999 was slightly higher than it was in 2000.

The government in its haste, without thinking, brought in the plan. We have heard the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance say that the government has given money to 11 million Canadians. It may have given money to 11 million Canadians, but were they the 11 million who needed the relief? Were they the ones paying the heating bills? No, they were not. That is why even prisoners were getting cheques. Does the government think prisoners pay heating bills in penitentiaries?

We now have an ill conceived program, as is normal. Half the programs coming from that side are like that. All my colleagues here have received numerous calls from their constituents on this foolhardy program.

The government gave back $1.2 billion to the Canadian public without thinking. What an idiotic program. If it wanted to really help there were ways it could have done so. It has a huge bureaucracy. Could all those bureaucrats and mandarins not have thought up a plan where those who were paying would get a cheque? No, they did not. They used a quick solution without thinking about it.

The government has wasted $1.2 billion. Canadians notice the unfairness of the system, the unfairness of the high taxes they pay. The government has stated that it will reduce taxes, but the way taxes are being reduced is not uniform.

On behalf of my constituents I needed to bring up the point of the heating oil and let the government and those mandarins know that this is a wrong and ill thought out program that is wasting $1.2 billion.

[Gerald Keddy, Progressive Conservative, South Shore, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to preface my remarks with a comment on the remarks from the member for Winnipeg Centre. He led us through an interesting discussion though I am not quite sure that he was completely on subject. Still, it was a very interesting discussion.

I think the question is not whether Canada wants to have a private crown corporation run oil firm, but how much that firm cost us. Is it responsible and reasonable to continue in that direction today? Is it time to get out from under that burden of debt?

I would like to see a tally sheet of what Petro-Canada has cost us on one side and the profits that we made on the other side. I expect to have that information before we finish the bill in committee. I think then we could get into a very interesting and hopefully enlightening debate on whether or not we should keep the company in Canada.

Bill C-3, an act to amend the Eldorado Nuclear Limited Reorganization and Divestiture Act and the Petro-Canada Public Participation Act, will allow for greater foreign ownership of the two companies, Petro-Canada and Cameco. That is plain and simple.

As previous speakers have said, the proposed legislation would provide greater flexibility to both companies in their respective industries. It should allow them to continue as well-respected participants in the oil, gas and uranium fields. It should also provide them with increased opportunities for strategic management and positioning within those sectors.

I would like to repeat something that my colleague from St. John's West said when he spoke to the bill in its previous life as Bill C-39. Speaking as a member from Newfoundland, where Petro-Canada has a large involvement through its development of the Hibernia project and other potential oil and gas fields, he said “Even though we can appreciate, perhaps more in Newfoundland than anywhere else in the country, what Petro-Canada has done for oil and gas development in our province, we also must realize that to grow, companies need investment. We cannot restrict that investment or we are putting companies at a disadvantage.”

I could not agree more with my colleague. We all know that we operate in a global environment. Free trade agreements, technological advances and developing countries and markets require innovative and evolving responses to new challenges and opportunities. It is not in Canada's best interest to restrict any company from taking advantage of those opportunities or from moving into new and unexplored areas and markets.

However, there are other issues respecting the legislation that still need to be studied and examined as the legislative process continues.

First, Petro-Canada is an oil and gas company in a market where the price of crude oil has significantly increased over the past year. Petro-Canada has announced record earnings for the year 2000. In a press release the company says “Petro-Canada's performance reflects both an exceptional business environment and our success in capitalizing on that environment.”

No one would argue that if the government is going to take steps to get out of the oil and gas business, now could be one of the best possible times to do that. The industry is on a high and prices reflect that reality. With annual net earnings in 2000 of $893 million, the company far exceeded its previous high of $306 million in 1997.

We all know that the price of oil and gas has increased. We are reminded of that on an almost daily basis when we fill up our cars and pay our heating bills. While this points out the reason why companies like Petro-Canada are experiencing record highs, it also begs the question of what do Canadian taxpayers get out of this deal.

If the government has indicated that it is going to divest itself of the 18% stake it continues to hold in Petro-Canada, taxpayers who funded the purchase of this former crown corporation in 1975 need to benefit directly from the government's decision to get out of the energy sector. Many Canadians are ready to let Petro-Canada be privatized completely and have that money either paid on our national debt or invested in alternative and sustainable energy.

We can stipulate certain requirements in the privatization process, in this case the location of headquarters, Canadian directors and a limit on individual ownership.

The province of Nova Scotia recently announced that it is selling its share in Nova Scotia Resources Ltd., a company established in 1981 to allow the government to participate in the oil and gas industry. Over the course of time a debt of almost $800 million has been amassed. This is a debt that Nova Scotia taxpayers have had to assume. If the $425 million deal that the government announced goes through it will be one less burden on Nova Scotia taxpayers and the government will reduce its debt load. That deal allows the government to cut its losses.

I would suggest that now is a favourable time to get out, just as it is for the federal government with respect to its position in Petro-Canada. If we are going to privatize, now is the time to do it. It also shows that unless there are public policy reasons for direct involvement, the risk inherent in the oil and gas industry may outweigh the benefits for governmental involvement.

In both cases, Petro-Canada at the federal level and Nova Scotia Resources Ltd. at the provincial level, the decision to get directly involved in the oil and gas industry stemmed from global conditions of the day, namely the energy crisis. Petro-Canada was established as a crown corporation in 1975 by an act of parliament to allow Canada to have a stake in the oil and gas industry and improve exploration and development of new oil and gas sources within Canada. This is precisely what happened. Petro-Canada went on to make purchases that led to a share in the Hibernia project and the gas discoveries off Nova Scotia, as well as the tar sands in Alberta. These are still some of the company's primary areas.

However, the federal government divested its interest over time to the point that today it controls exactly 18.2% of the shares but it has no management involvement. With no public policy reasons for its continued participation in the company, the time is seen as appropriate for a complete divestiture. This bill is one more step toward that objective.

The bill deals with two companies, Petro-Canada and Cameco. While many of the points I have already made also apply to Cameco, their respective industries are significantly different. I would like to discuss those differences for a few moments.

Cameco is involved in the uranium business. In fact, it is the world's largest uranium company. As I mentioned, the similarity with Petro-Canada is that this legislation will increase the percentage of foreign ownership on both an individual and aggregate basis, again stipulating that the head office remain in Canada, in this case Saskatchewan, and with Canadian directors. However, the nuclear industry is quite different from the oil and gas industry and Canadians remain skeptical about the safety issues surrounding nuclear power, perhaps with good reason. The auditor general recently reported to parliament and he highlighted some concerns respecting risk assessments at Canada's nuclear power generators. As well, the issue of disposal of radioactive waste remains largely unanswered.

I have been told that the legislation in no way affects the non-proliferation policy and uranium will continue to be sold only to those countries that are signatory to the non-proliferation agreement.

World markets are changing dramatically, and by loosening rules on foreign ownership, it is anticipated that this will provide Cameco with increased opportunity to take advantage of new opportunities and new market conditions.

What both of these companies highlight is Canada's and the world's dependence on energy sources, whether those sources be oil and gas or nuclear. There are a lot of exciting developments taking place in both of these sectors. The Mackenzie Delta pipeline looks like it could soon become a reality and new nuclear reactors have increased safeguards.

Canada needs to be in a position to take advantage of these new prospects and new technologies. I look forward to studying the legislation more closely at committee to see whether the legislation will benefit Canadian taxpayers and be one step toward helping these companies position themselves for future growth and productivity.

In closing, the issue here is exactly that. Does the legislation benefit Canadian taxpayers? It would be my position that the legislation does benefit Canadian taxpayers. There is a significant difference between developments in the petrochemical and petroleum industry energy sector and the nuclear and uranium industry sector.

That is what we have to take a look at in committee. This is only the first time the bill has been debated. We will have an opportunity to discuss it further, and we plan to have some more numbers to look at when we come back to parliament the next time.

[Jim Peterson, Liberal, for the Minister of Natural Resources]

moved that Bill C-3, an act to amend the Eldorado Nuclear Limited Reorganization and Divestiture Act and the Petro-Canada Public Participation Act, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to speak on behalf of the Minister of Natural Resources who unfortunately cannot be with us.

Bill C-3 is an act to amend the Eldorado Nuclear Limited Reorganization and Divestiture Act and the Petro-Canada Public Participation Act. This is the same bill as Bill C-39 which received second reading last fall but died on the order paper.

At that time, three out of four of the opposition parties in the House agreed to support that bill. I do hope that we will have their support for the bill today.

Members will recall that when the bill was first introduced, it was done extremely capably by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Natural Resources, the member for Timiskaming—Cochrane. He spoke eloquently of the merits of the bill and of our natural resource sector. He pointed out that resource industries are not relics of the past. They are important engines of economic growth in Canada.

Energy, mining, forestry, geomatics and related industries currently account for 11% of our gross domestic product and 22% of new capital investment. They employ directly 780,000 Canadians and drive the economies of over 600 of our communities from coast to coast.

In 1998 the resource sector exported $97 billion worth of goods and services. Our resource sectors are in fact dynamic and vital elements of not the old economy but the knowledge based economy of the 21st century.

Resource companies are not in competition with high tech businesses. They are high tech businesses. They are investing $35 billion a year in leading edge technologies and other capital. Their productivity is growing three times faster than the rest of the economy.

Several factors explain the excellent performance of the resource industry in the world economy. The policies based on economic tendencies and markets which successive Liberal governments have implemented are good examples of this.

That being said, this kind of work is never finished, and our constant challenge is to ensure that the Canadian resource industry remains competitive and continues to support our economic prosperity. We must keep fine tuning our legislative and strategic framework so that companies in the resource industry have the leeway and capacity they need to make strategic decisions and secure a better position on the Canadian and world markets.

That is the rationale for the bill. The legislative amendments being proposed today are intended to allow two of our major performers in the natural resources sector, Cameco Corporation and Petro-Canada, to continue their record of economic growth and environmental stewardship.

I would like to quickly review the history behind these proposed amendments.

At one time both Cameco and Petro-Canada were crown corporations wholly owned by taxpayers. By 1995, however, the Government of Canada had sold all of its shares in Cameco, which is the dominant company in Canada's world leading uranium industry. As for Petro-Canada, although the government currently owns 18% of its shares, it does not influence the management of the company.

At the time of privatization, certain ownership restrictions were placed on both these companies. These restrictions were implemented at that time for good reasons, but circumstances have changed within the continuing evolution of global energy markets. The bottom line today is that some of these ownership restrictions have outlived their usefulness and are actually preventing these companies from taking advantage of new business opportunities.

Changes are needed, obviously. Restrictions on ownership provided in the two statutes do not give these companies the freedom enjoyed by their competitors to be able to grow and face competition on the world market. If Cameco and Petro-Canada are to continue performing well as private businesses, we have to ensure that the rules of the game are the same for everybody. The government also intends to ensure that these two corporations continue to make their decisions in Canada, with due consideration for Canadian interests.

To accomplish that, the bill will modify or remove certain restrictions that are limiting the ability of Cameco and Petro-Canada to attract new investment capital to forge new strategic alliances.

Specifically, the bill amends the Petro-Canada Public Participation Act to increase the limit on individual ownership of shares from 10% to 20%. It will also eliminate the 25% limit on the quantity of shares that could be collectively owned by non-residents of Canada. In other words, we are removing the restrictions on foreign ownership of Petro-Canada.

As for Cameco, we continue to believe in the need for some restrictions on foreign ownership. The bill therefore proposes to increase the limit on individual non-resident share ownership from 5% to a maximum of 15%. Similarly, the cap on total non-resident ownership of Cameco will increase from 20% to 25% of the company's shares. The current ownership limit for individual Canadians, which is 25%, will remain in place.

At the same time, the bill insists that these two corporations remain in Canada and be managed in Canada.

To further ensure that Cameco remains under Canadian control, the legislation will continue to require that the company's head office be located in Saskatchewan and that the majority of its directors be Canadian residents.

The legislation also requires that Petro-Canada's head office be located in Calgary and that the majority of its directors also be Canadian residents. The 20% limit on individual ownership of voting shares of Petro-Canada will prevent a takeover by a large multinational.

Finally, Petro-Canada has reoriented its major activities so that they are truly Canadian. They are concentrating on the east coast offshore and on the oil sands.

Bill C-3 will prevent Petro-Canada from disposing of all or substantially all of its commercial or production assets. The goal is to give Petro-Canada far greater freedom in administering its portfolio of assets, at the same time ensuring that it cannot dispose of these assets through a wind up.

The outstanding Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Natural Resources made it clear in the previous debate that the sole intent of these changes is to give Cameco and Petro-Canada increased agility and better global positioning. It does not reflect a major shift in energy policy. These changes confirm our commitment to allow market forces to work, but within reasonable and responsible limits.

Officials of both companies have strongly supported these changes, showing that they are not trying to entrench their management positions as some might have otherwise suspected.

In closing, I should like to address briefly two of the other issues that were raised in debate when this matter came before parliament last spring.

First, let me reassure members that the proposed amendments will have no impact on the price of refined petroleum products. Gasoline and diesel oil prices in Canada rise and fall with crude oil prices, which in turn are set by supply and demand in a global market. They are not set by ownership rules applying to any one company in the Canadian petroleum industry.

Second, let me assure members that Bill C-3 does not affect Canada's commitment to the non-proliferation of nuclear weapons or to nuclear security.

As I outlined earlier in my remarks, these amendments have been supported and endorsed in principle by a big majority of the House, with most hon. members recognizing that these changes will be good for the two companies, will be good for investors and will be good for all Canadians.

In this spirit, I welcome the opportunity to speak briefly this morning and I commend the bill to all members of the House, asking humbly that it receive quick passage at second reading and go to committee for full discussion.