Bill C-35 (Historical)

An Act to amend the Criminal Code (reverse onus in bail hearings for firearm-related offences)

This enactment amends the Criminal Code to provide that the accused will be required to demonstrate, when charged with certain serious offences involving firearms or other regulated weapons, that pre-trial detention is not justified in their case and to introduce additional factors relating to firearm offences that the courts must take into account in deciding whether an accused should be released or detained pending trial.

Comments by Government House Leader

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Mr. Speaker, for a final time, let us see if we can get unanimous consent of all parties, including government members, for the following motion: That notwithstanding any Standing Order or usual practice Bill C-35, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (reverse onus in bail hearings for firearm-related offences), be deemed to have been read a second time, referred to and reported without amendment by a legislative committee, concurred in at the report stage, and read a third time and passed.

Business of the House

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Minister for Democratic Reform]

Mr. Speaker, I believe that the opposition House leader takes a very broad view of the definition of technical. However, we hope that Bill C-16 will progress and will be approved in a form that is appropriate and reasonable to approve and that we will have it here to deal with in the House quickly. That has not happened yet, however, and therefore today we are going to continue with the Liberal opposition motion and the business of supply.

Tomorrow we will continue debate on second reading of Bill C-35, which is the bail reform bill. This is one that has been the subject of positive words from the opposition, and we hope that we will be able to move to unanimous approval.

That would allow us to get on with other issues such as Bill C-42, the Quarantine Act; Bill S-2, hazardous materials; Bill S-3, which deals with defence and justice matters; and Bill C-33, which is an Income Tax Act item.

On Monday, we will be having day three of the budget debate. On Tuesday, we will have the final day of the budget debate.

On Wednesday and Thursday we will continue with the unfinished business from this Friday, including hopefully, the addition of Bill C-10 dealing with mandatory minimum penalties, which I know the opposition House leader will want to add to his package of justice bills he wishes to enthusiastically support.

On Friday, March 30 we will begin debate on the budget implementation bill.

I would like to designate, pursuant to Standing Order 66(2), Wednesday, March 28 for the continuation of the debate on the motion to concur in the 11th report of the Standing Committee on Agriculture, and Thursday, March 29 for the continuation of the debate on the motion to concur in the second report of the Standing Committee on Health.

There is one further item that the opposition House leader raised which was the question of the labour bill. I believe he heard a very generous offer from the Minister of Labour today. I believe the ball is now in the opposition's court on this.

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Thank you so much for being here today, Minister, and thank you for your presentation.

As you know from the speeches the Liberals made at second reading of this bill, Bill C-22, and from our Liberal justice strategy, which we announced in October 2006, Bill C-22 is in fact one of the bills the Liberal Party and the Liberal caucus supports. And back in 2006 we offered to fast-track it for the government, to work with the government to see that it was fast-tracked.

I'm pleased to hear in your response to my colleague Brian Murphy that you're delighted that the Liberals are supporting C-22 and that you want to see it come into effect and be enacted as quickly as possible.

So you have obviously been made cognizant of the Liberal opposition day motion, which will be debated tomorrow as part of the supply day for opposition, which makes an offer, for the third time, to this Conservative government that we are prepared to work with the government to have Bill C-18, An Act to amend certain Acts in relation to DNA identification; Bill C-22, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (age of protection) and to make consequential amendments to the Criminal Records Act—on which you're appearing before us right now—Bill C-23, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (criminal procedure, language of the accused, sentencing and other amendments); and Bill C-35, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (reverse onus in bail hearings for firearm-related offences) deemed to have been considered by the House of Commons at all stages.

Should the government agree to vote in that way, this bill, C-22, Bill C-18, Bill C-23, and Bill C-35 will have been deemed to have gone through the House of Commons at all stages.

So I would hope that, given your delight in hearing that we're prepared to support Bill C-22.... You're not learning of this for the first time, because that was announced back in October 2006. The offer was made back then. Unfortunately, the government only took us up on three bills: C-9, conditional sentencing; Bill C-19, street racing; and Bill C-26, payday loans. But Bills C-18, C-22, and C-23 were part of that offer. You and your government, in its wisdom, decided not to take us up on it in October. The offer was again made when we came back after the Christmas break. The government decided not to take us up on it.

We're now making it for a third time, this time in writing, as part of an actual motion on which you and your colleagues will be called on to vote. I'm hopeful, and I'm asking if you will be prepared to recommend to your Prime Minister, to your colleagues, that they vote in favour of the Liberal opposition day motion, which would deem Bills C-18, DNA identification; C-22, age of protection; C-23, criminal procedures; and C-35, reverse onus for bail hearings, to have been considered by the House at all stages and adopted.

Procedure and House Affairs

[Gary Goodyear, Conservative, Cambridge, ON]

Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 113(1), I have the honour to present the 36th report of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs regarding the membership of the legislative committee on Bill C-35, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (reverse onus in bail hearings for firearm-related offences).

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, the Government of Canada recognizes that organized crime, including gang activity, continues to pose a threat to the safety of our streets and communities. The government is taking both legislative and non-legislative steps to counter it.

For example, with Bill C-10, the government is proposing to toughen minimum penalties for serious repeat firearms offences, tailored in a manner that targets the specific problem that currently exists with respect to guns and gangs.

With Bill C-35, the government is proposing to create a reverse onus for bail for those charged with certain serious firearms offences.

With Bill C-27, we are targeting serious dangerous offenders.

I should point out also that Bill C-25 received royal assent on December 14 and ensures that Canada's anti-money laundering regime more fully complies with international best practices.

The Department of Justice officials are currently undertaking a review of our criminal laws to ensure that Canada's legislative measures appropriately respond to threats posed by organized crime.

Of course, strong laws are not by themselves enough to fully combat the threats posed by organized crime. That is why the government has invested in a range of measures designed to prevent crime before it happens.

For example, we committed nearly $200 million to enhance the ability of our national police force, the RCMP, to combat crime and to keep our communities safe.

We have also invested in crime prevention activities, specifically targeted at youth at risk, and focusing on gangs, guns and drugs.

There are several important reasons why society should be concerned with youth involved in gang activity. Gang members commit a disproportionate number of offences, and commit serious and violent offences at a rate several times higher than youth who are not involved in gangs.

In the 2006 federal budget, the government announced resources in the amount of $10 million per year to prevent youth crime, with a focus again on guns, gangs and drugs.

Last October, federal officials signalled to the provincial and territorial counterparts that resources were available for communities in need.

To date, several proposals have been received and a number of pilot projects that provide programming for youth involved in or at risk of gang involvement have been funded.

Before closing, I would be remiss not to highlight everything Bill C-10 proposes to do to tackle the specific serious threats that repeat firearms offenders pose to our society.

As members know, in spite of a general decrease in gun crimes, the situation across Canada is not looking all that bright and there is a major cause for concern. Serious gun crimes, such as firearm homicides, gang-related homicides, and the proportion of handgun robberies have increased in a number of our larger cities.

The guns and gangs problem is not a concern only in large urban centres of Canada, it is also a concern in some of the rural and other areas across our country. So, this is something that we, as parliamentarians, have to take very seriously.

I should mention what the opposition has done with the government's bill, Bill C-10, that would have had escalating penalties for individuals who commit offences, gang-related offences, and offences with prohibited or restricted firearms. The legislation would have taken a more serious approach with offenders and had escalating penalties for those who were repeat offenders. Unfortunately, the opposition rejected the government's proposal to provide higher minimum penalties for firearms, traffickers and smugglers.

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

When I raised the issue of Bill C-22, it was not at all my intent to delay the review on the judicial appointment process suggested by Mr. Ménard in his motion. It was, in fact, because we felt that these two issues were equally important. The review of the appointment process was done by the government without any consultation.

This was, moreover, what prompted me to suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice that the government consider referring Bill C-22 to a legislative committee, despite the fact that the House had referred it to the Standing Committee on Justice. I may be mistaken, but it seems to me that associate members of a standing committee can sit on legislative committees. So it isn't true that only the regular committee members can sit on it.

I would also like to correct a statement made by Mr. Moore to the effect that legislative committees are established further to an agreement or consensus amongst the parliamentary leaders. If that were the case, there would not have been the government motion before the House on Bill C-35, which is aimed at reversing the onus of proof in cases awaiting trial. The parliamentary leaders were not consulted: the government acted unilaterally.

If committee members feel that Bill C-22 is as important as we, the members of the opposition, feel it is, by agreeing to study the judicial appointment process which was done unilaterally by the government, I move that Mr. Moore go back to his minister, his parliamentary leader, and, if necessary, his Prime Minister, and suggest that the parliamentary leaders consult with one another during their meeting on Tuesday afternoon. A suggestion could be made that another motion be tabled in the House requesting that the House review its decision, namely, that it refer Bill C-22 to a legislative committee rather than the Standing Committee on Justice.

In my opinion, that would suit everybody. The government would ensure that Bill C-22 is examined without delay and all of the members of this committee would be able to review the judicial appointment process, which was reviewed by the government without any consultation.

Business of the House

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Minister for Democratic Reform]

Mr. Speaker, today we will continue the debate on the Liberal opposition motion.

Tomorrow we will resume debate on Bill C-31, the voter integrity bill, with Bill C-35, the bail reform bill as backup.

Monday we will call Bill C-31, elections, if it is not completed tomorrow; Bill C-44, human rights; Bill C-11, transport; Bill C-33, technical income tax; Bill S-2, hazardous materials; and the statutory order. We have an ambitious agenda there.

Tuesday, February 20, and Thursday, February 22, will be allotted to the business of supply.

On Wednesday we will continue with the business outlined on Monday.

Next Friday, I will consider beginning the debate on Bill C-45, An Act respecting the sustainable development of Canada's seacoast and inland fisheries.

With respect to the debate on the statutory order regarding the Anti-terrorism Act, if an agreement on debate is not reached before February 28, certain provisions of the Anti-terrorism Act will sunset. It is the government's view that all members should be given the opportunity to decide the fate of these provisions because they involve the safety of people they represent.

Recent events have made us aware that the terrorist threats continue to specifically target Canada, but if the terms of the law are not extended by March 1, the protections that we have in place right now will cease to apply.

If an agreement can be reached, I am prepared to call the motion sooner and sit as long as necessary on that day to bring the debate to a conclusion.

Criminal Code

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to take part today in the debate on the second reading of Bill C-35 to amend the Criminal Code to reverse the burden of proof in bail hearings for individuals arrested for having committed firearm-related offences.

Since arriving in this House, I have commented on several government bills pertaining to justice. With regard to this new proposal, I believe that it is essential to put Bill C-35 into context because this bill lacks a solid factual foundation to determine if it will be effective with respect to firearms-related offences.

At present, it is up to the crown to prove that the accused must not be released on bail because he or she represents a danger to society. In the Criminal Code, the burden of proof rests with the accused only in very specific cases.

I would like to provide the context for amendments suggested by Bill C-35. First of all, there is reverse onus at the bail hearing for certain firearms-related offences. The accused will have to prove that he should not be detained prior to his trial. The bill adds two factors that the judge must take into account in making a decision to release the accused or to place him in custody for the duration of criminal proceedings. These two factors are the use of a firearm and an offence that involves a minimum prison term of three years or more.

In this sense, the Conservative government's bill seeks to broaden the existing range of exceptions that reverse onus. As I mentioned earlier, the accused bears the burden of proof for certain, specified offences, such as breach of release conditions, involvement in organized crime, terrorism, trafficking, contraband or drug production.

If this bill passes, it will add to these cases, which we consider serious, another set of exceptions in which people accused of committing a crime with a firearm will have to prove to the judge that they can be released without fear for society. This is very difficult to prove, especially for someone accused of attempted murder, discharging a firearm with intent to wound, sexual assault with a weapon, and so forth.

As I was saying, I have had a chance to study some of the government’s justice bills. Once again, Bill C-35 raises considerable concern because it is of the same ilk as some of the previous ones and falls back on the rhetoric of toughening up the law, instead of looking at crime prevention, in order to give the impression that the government is doing something.

This demagogic approach is apparent in the repeated government gestures in the area of justice. For example, they attack judicial discretion, make lists that fail to deal with the particular realities, and concentrate on repression when there is no scientific basis for it. Here once again, they are attacking the basic principles of our justice system. These gestures make me wonder, therefore, what they are doing and the reasons for this bill.

I would like to focus on two concerns that I think pose a threat to our current legal system. First—and this is something we have already seen in previous bills—Bill C-35 undermines judicial discretion in sentencing. In the British legal tradition, it is incumbent upon the Crown to show that a person cannot be released because of fears for public safety. I do not believe that putting the onus on the individual in the legal system is the right way to proceed or that it affords the opportunities to which everyone is entitled. We know very well that there are already exceptions in very serious cases, but they should not be made the rule.

At present, judges can impose any reasonable conditions they consider appropriate, such as curfews or a prohibition on the consumption of alcohol or drugs. They can attach other conditions as well, such as the need to appear before a law enforcement officer at certain times, remain within a certain geographical jurisdiction, and provide notification of any change of address or employment.

Secondly, there have not been as many studies of release on bail as of other facets of the criminal justice system. We might not have answers to even the simplest of questions, beginning with this one: how many people accused of committing a crime with a firearm are actually released on bail?

With regard to this glaring lack of relevant information, I wonder about a press release issued on November 23, 2006, in which the Prime Minister mentioned that more than 1,000 crimes had been committed with a firearm in Toronto alone. According to his police sources, 40% of these crimes were committed by someone who was on parole, bail, temporary absence or probation. Why does this government mix all the release categories together to justify Bill C-35, when its bill specifically targets people who are on bail? Does the government have any relevant statistics for this particular release category?

I would also like to mention the article in the November 24, 2006, issue of La Presse indicating that even the Montreal police could not say how many crimes involving firearms were committed by repeat offenders.

What is more, according to Tony Doob, a criminologist at the University of Toronto, the statistics in this area do not tell the whole story, because someone could be out on bail as a result of simple theft, a situation Bill C-35 would not address. People accused of offences involving firearms are already faced with something like reverse onus. The expert adds that the question is whether the bill will make it possible to imprison a dangerous person who would not otherwise have been incarcerated.

Speaking of relevant statistics, I will add that there are more people behind bars awaiting trial than people serving sentences. According to Statistics Canada, in 2004, there were 125,871 Canadians in prison awaiting trial, while 83,733 people behind bars were serving court-ordered sentences. I can therefore conclude that the main objective of the bill—to reverse onus in the case of release on bail for all people accused of crimes involving firearms—lacks judgment and clarity.

For all these reasons, I am opposed to Bill C-35, even though there are some exceptions.

[Myron Thompson, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I listened to some of the answers that were given to specific questions, in particular by the last member, the Liberal lawyer. Bless her little pea picking heart. She just does not get it. She just does not understand exactly what it is that we are getting at.

I am putting it as plain as I can. A person is assaulted. It is traumatic and shocking. There is an arrest. The accused is in jail. The victim is at peace. The police did their job. Then the courts allow bail. How does that make the victim feel?

Do not fear. The judge tells the accused not to go near the victim. That does not mean squat to these criminals. When we are talking about violent offenders using guns and getting released on bail, it creates further trauma in the lives of victims. I really do not see why Liberals have so much difficulty understanding that.

I am extremely proud of the ministers in my party, both past and present, for pushing these kinds of pieces of legislation forward. They heard the message that I heard and that I have been hearing for 13 years: Canadians want us to do something about crime in this country, particularly violent crime. I applaud these people for bringing forward legislation that addresses many people's concerns.

I am pleased to hear that the NDP is supporting this bill, but to say the Conservatives only put it forward for political gains is nonsense. I know that every member in the House today heard the same message in their ridings. Canadians want us to clamp down on crime, particularly those involved with the use of guns. I am proud to be part of an organization that is attempting to do that.

The other thing I want to mention is the omnibus bill. Bloc and NDP members all seemed to insist that in order to do legislation properly there should be more pieces put together to form a big bill and cover all these things. For 13 years the justice committee has been dealing with omnibus bills brought forward by the previous government.

Here is the problem. In some of these omnibus bills there were certain aspects that I kind of liked and that my party was supportive of, but then there were other portions that we did not particularly like. Efforts were made to amend those portions to make them better and then finally we end up with a total package. The omnibus bill then comes before the House and we have to cast a ballot.

Like the old saying goes, if one takes a spoonful of sugar before the medicine goes down, one can swallow the whole idea more easily. I never ever felt good about supporting an omnibus bill that had certain sections in it that I could not support and yet other sections I could.

The biggest example I can think of is the child protection act. Over the years when we worked on that particular piece of legislation, we could never get one aspect right and that was how to deal with child pornography, one of the most evil acts in the country which has grown into a $1 billion industry because we did not do anything about it right from the very beginning. We attempted to, but could not do it because the legislation was concerned about the rights of certain individuals being trampled on, like freedom of expression or freedom of speech.

Then, some judge in a court case decided that child pornography might have some artistic merit. I think we all remember that. Suddenly the police had to take every item of child pornography they managed to confiscate and examine it carefully to make sure it did not have some artistic merit.

We all agreed about this in the House, and even the government thought it was a good idea, so it brought in another bill and tried to get rid of certain wording to make it right so that we could get after this child pornography. The Liberals tried “public good”, but nobody could agree that any child pornography would have any public good. Then they tried another term: “useful purpose”. After much debate, we could not go along with that either, so the omnibus bill had to leave in certain things that left it open to child pornography, such that people who offended others with that material could use some of those excuses to carry on with what has grown into a billion dollar industry today.

I do not feel very good about that, nor should any member of the House who has been here for the last few years. Nor should any member who is here today feel good about that happening. We should have broken up the omnibus bill and dealt with child pornography with legislation that would defeat one of the most evil things that occurs in our society. But we do not do that.

I know that bail has caused a lot of trauma in the lives of a lot of victims simply because the offenders are out again. Violent offenders are released on bail. It happens. My personal belief is that there should be no bail for any violent offender, but as for putting reverse onus on them, I can go along with it.

If the onus is on the individual to explain to me why he should be allowed bail, I will go along with that. I will not go along with this constant letting out on bail of people who have traumatized victims across the country only to traumatize them again because they are free again. It does not matter what kind of court order there is for these people not to go within 1,000 yards, or not to go to that site, or near a school or whatever. That does not matter to these offenders. Getting out is what matters to them.

This bill is an attempt to just bring in another measure of safety to our society, a little more protection. Our Canadian society has demanded a lot of things. We need to adapt to the changing times and the changing crimes going on today. We need to update and enhance our bail regime to reflect our collective denunciation of gun crimes, which I know we all do.

Let us leave the duck hunters alone. Let us leave the deer hunters alone. Let us go after the criminals. Somebody once said to me that we needed to get to the root cause of crime but we did not know where to start, and suddenly, eureka, someone discovered it: the root cause of crime is criminals.

Lo and behold, it is a new discovery: criminals cause crime. What makes that happen? We are not too certain in a lot of cases. We use some things to try to give them an excuse sometimes. We have to quit doing that. We need to address the fact that people in this country have to make choices, and the choices cannot be crime, because if that is the choice, they will not like the results.

Fighting crime includes preventive measures. I consider Bill C-35 part of those measures.

With Bill C-35, those accused of serious offences involving firearms or other regulated weapons will have to justify why they should get bail, and rightfully so. Canadian citizens expect those who pose a significant risk to public safety to be kept behind bars. That is what Canadian citizens expect. They want a criminal justice system that protects them from violent crimes. That has to include an effective bail regime.

This is only a small part of the things we need to do. Yes, I believe in rehabilitation, and I believe in prevention. I believe in getting to the root causes. We must deal with them, but at the same time we have to get a message out there to those who violently attack people with guns, or without, that it is no longer going to be acceptable, because Canadian citizens, who expect to be protected from these people, will be protected. I am pleased to be part of a group of people running this country at the present time who want to do exactly that.

We need new tools to combat crime and to ensure that our streets and our homes are safe. One of those tools is to make it more difficult for a person charged with serious violent crimes to get on bail. Bill C-35 will make that happen.

Bill C-35 will make bail more difficult to obtain for an accused who is charged with the following: a serious crime involving the use of a firearm, possession of a firearm for the purpose of trafficking, firearms smuggling, or with any weapon-related offence allegedly committed while the accused is bound by a weapons prohibitions order.

I ask all members of this House to please support these kinds of measures for the sake of the safety of our communities. Several of our large urban centres are now facing a new brand of criminality. The member from Edmonton who was in the House a few minutes ago made that point about the changes that are happening in his city involving the criminal use or illegal possession of firearms.

Innocent people are being affected by inner city gang violence, random shootings and armed robberies. We only have to go back to Boxing Day, that dreadful day, to remember that. And there are killings in schools. We need to protect Canadians from these threats.

On the recent trends with respect to gun crimes, I want to illustrate the threat that such crimes pose to public safety. According to 2005 statistics on crime, rapes, homicides and attempted murders increased in 2005.

Homicide is the most serious of all criminal acts, including first and second degree murder, manslaughter and infanticide. Following a 13% increase in 2004, the homicide rate increased by a further 4% in 2005. Police services reported a total of 658 homicides in 2005, 34 more than 2004. The rate of two homicides per 100,000 people was the highest since 1996.

The rate of attempted murders also increased by 14% in 2005. There were 772 attempted murders, 100 more than in the previous year. The rise in the number of homicides at the national level was primarily driven by large increases in Ontario, where there were 31 more homicides than in the previous year, and in Alberta, where the number of homicides for 2005 increased by 23.

Even if the overall crime rate was lower in Canada this past year, the crime rate for these violent offences was on the rise and continues to be on the rise.

According to a Statistics Canada 2005 homicide survey, gang related homicides as a percentage of all homicides continue to increase. The percentage of firearm homicides reported as being gang related was 2.1% in 1993, with 13 victims. It was up to 9.1% five years later in 1998, with 51 victims. In the last two years, there was an average of 78 victims each year, representing 13.4% of all firearm homicides.

According to this same report, the number and percentage of handguns used in firearm homicides have continued to increase over the last three decades. In 1974, 76 or 27% of all firearm homicides were committed with handguns. In 1984, 66 or 29% of all firearm homicides were committed by handguns. In 1994, the number increased considerably to 90 incidents, representing 46% of all firearm homicides. In spite of a very significant decrease in overall firearm homicides since the mid-1990s, the number of handgun homicides increased to 112 in 2004, which is 64% of the firearm homicides.

There has been a lot of emphasis in the speeches today with regard to the gun registry. Obviously these figures tell me that it is not the registry that is going to save the day. It is not working. It is causing a lot of grief for duck hunters and law-abiding people, but it does not appear to be causing enough grief for the criminal element.

With respect to firearm robberies, it should be noted that while firearm robberies have declined considerably over the last decades, the portion of handgun robberies has increased. In 2004, 85% of all firearm robberies were committed with handguns. The number of firearm robberies doubled in Nova Scotia between 2003 and 2004. Several metropolitan areas have firearm robbery rates well above the national rate. The rates for 2004 were: in Montreal, 24 per 100,000 population; in Winnipeg, 19.7 per 100,000 population; in Toronto, 18.6 per 100,000 population; and in Vancouver, 17.8 per 100,000 population.

All of these remain much higher than the national rate of 11.8 per 100,000 population. In spite of a downward trend in crime, as they say, it is beginning to skyrocket in other major centres.

Increases have also been noted in the use of handguns in other violent crimes, including firearm crimes such as attempted murder and extortion. The statistics compiled by the homicide squad of the Toronto police service for 2006 reflect these trends. There were 62 murders in Toronto as of November 22, 2006. Of the 46 persons that were arrested, 14 were on bail at the time of the murder and 17 were on court-ordered firearms prohibition orders. Let me repeat that: 14 were on bail at the time of the murder.

Whether we live in a big city such as Toronto or in a rural setting like mine, we all want to feel safe in our homes, on our streets and in our public places.

Communities, as well as participants in the justice system, have reason to be concerned about the release from custody of people involved in gun and gang related crimes. We need to protect Canadians who wish to go about their daily lives without the fear of being the victim of a crime. Most certainly, we need to go about our daily lives without the fear that some person in jail because of a very violent and heinous crime dare be released on bail only to traumatize the residents of that large city or that rural setting. The point is that this is happening far too often.

I applaud my minister for bringing forward legislation that attempts to help make our communities and our society safer. I will fight for that cause for as long I stand in the House of Commons. I never will give up that fight.

I beg all members of the House to hear the Canadian citizens. They are calling for measures to do what this bill would do, which is make our communities safer. Please support the bill.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask my colleague a question. Throughout the various testimonies that were heard by the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights, one of the main issues was that, in my province and especially in Montreal, firearms can be found in any restaurant in Montreal within half an hour.

Furthermore, the hon. member for Ahuntsic published a book that effectively summarizes the situation in Montreal, namely, that there are currently 34 street gangs in the city, which are giving firearms to children as young as 11 and 12. Why? Because they are engaged in drug trafficking and prostitution.

All of this was summarized in the book, which is an excellent read, incidentally. I urge everyone to consult it. They will then see why Bill C-35 is needed at this time.

My colleague often tells us that we have a right-leaning ideology, because we propose bills that perhaps go against their ideology, which tends to promote certain things that would take away from the sense of security that we wish to ensure. However, the sentiment must also be accompanied by legislation and changes to legislation.

Can my colleague tell me how the reversal of onus, which Bill C-35 proposes—and which will be introduced—goes against section 11(e) of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which states: “Any person charged with an offence has the right not to be denied reasonable bail without just cause”?

How do the two or three short sentences of Bill C-35, which are referred to as amendments, infringe on section 11(e) of the charter?

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Mr. Speaker, as the justice critic for the official opposition, I am very pleased to rise in this House to discuss Bill C-35, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (reverse onus in bail hearings for firearm-related offences).

Before I begin my speech, I would like to thank the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice for his kind words of congratulation on my appointment to the critic portfolio.

No doubt everyone is aware that Bill C-35 amends the Criminal Code to provide that the accused will be required to demonstrate, when charged with certain serious offences involving firearms or other regulated weapons, that pre-trial detention is not justified in their case.

The bill also introduces two factors relating to such offences that the courts must take into account in deciding whether detention is justified or not.

I can say right now that the Liberal Party is not opposed to the principle of reverse onus on bail issues. This principle is already in use in Canadian courts. It is in the Criminal Code for serious offences, such as murder.

Therefore, our party would in fact like to see this bill referred to the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights so that we can ensure it will accomplish what it sets out to do, that it does indeed meet appropriate safeguards, such as that of our Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and that legal and criminal experts do concur in its usefulness.

Accordingly, I would normally have respectfully asked my caucus colleagues to support sending Bill C-35 to the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights at second reading. However, the motion that the government has tabled would have this bill go to a special legislative committee. As such, I have not had an opportunity to study the ramifications should the House decide to send it to a legislative committee. I honestly believe that the bill should go to the justice committee. However, I would welcome comments from the parliamentary secretary on behalf of the government as to the reasons for sending it to a legislative committee rather than to the justice committee.

Getting back to the bill itself, given that the bill would amend the current provisions of Canada's bail system, perhaps we should begin our inquiry with a look at how bail arrangements now function.

It is the charter that sets out the basic measures regarding bail. The charter's section 11 lists the fundamental legal rights of Canadians who stand accused of certain crimes. The charter states:

Any person charged with an offence has the right:

a) to be informed without unreasonable delay of the specific offence;

b) to be tried within a reasonable time;

c) not to be compelled to be a witness in proceedings against that person in respect of the offence;

That means a person cannot be forced to incriminate himself or herself.

d) to be presumed innocent until proven guilty according to law in a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal; and

e) not to be denied reasonable bail without just cause--

The charter sets out the very conditions by which our criminal provisions must operate. It has as a principle that an individual who is charged of a crime is not to be denied reasonable bail without just cause.

As I mentioned, the Liberal Party is not opposed in principle to reverse onus in the case of bail. We ourselves have brought in provisions over the years since Confederation on the creation, adoption and subsequent modification and amendment to our criminal justice system provisions that provide for reverse onus for certain crimes. That is not the issue here.

Members may then ask about the last point, which makes clear that liberty pending trial is the presumption and basic entitlement of every Canadian under the charter. We are all presumed innocent, as many of my colleagues who have spoken to this bill have underlined, and we are all granted the right not to be denied bail without just cause.

Then let us talk about which reasons could motivate a judge to deny bail to a suspect accused of a particular crime where there is not already a reverse onus provision in the Criminal Code. Charter section 11(e) which states “not to be denied reasonable bail without just cause”, presumes then that the individual charged with a criminal offence has the possibility of getting bail and it is up to the Crown to show to the judge why that accused should not be awarded bail.

Current provisions hold that bail can be denied on one or more of the following three grounds. The first or primary ground is to ensure that the accused does not flee from justice on any charges currently before the courts. This could be someone who has been charged for a crime but who has not yet stood trial but who is then found, on reasonable grounds, to have committed another criminal offence and is charged with new charges. This is a primary ground where the judge could and would probably refuse bail on the grounds that the accused was a real danger of flight risk.

The secondary ground on which a judge may refuse or deny bail to a suspect is to protect the public if there is substantial likelihood that the accused will reoffend if released.

The tertiary ground is to maintain Canadians' confidence in the administration of justice in their country, for instance, in light of the gravity of the offence. Many times if someone is charged with an offence that is particularly heinous and quite grave, the judge will take that into account and deem it necessary to deny bail in order to preserve Canadians' confidence in the administration of justice.

Under the circumstances that I have just outlined, the prosecutor bears the onus of demonstrating why an accused should be refused or denied bail.

However, as I said a few moments ago, there are some cases where the accused has the onus of demonstrating that pre-trial detention is not justified.

There is a range of situations in which the accused—the accused, not the Crown—must satisfy a judge that he or she deserves to be released before trial. I would like to offer a few examples.

When the suspect is charged with an indictable offence committed while already released and awaiting trial on another indictable offence. In that case, it is the accused who will have to satisfy the judge that there are reasons and grounds that justify the judge granting release on bail.

When the suspect fails to appear in court or has allegedly breached a release condition. This is another situation in which it is the accused who must satisfy the judge that he or she deserves to be released while awaiting trial.

When the suspect is charged with an indictable offence involving organized crime, terrorism or security of information.

There is also the case of a suspect charged with an indictable offence consisting of drug trafficking, smuggling or production.

And last—although this list is not exhaustive—when the suspect is not a Canadian resident and is charged with any indictable offence.

These are situations in which, under the existing provisions of the Criminal Code, the accused has the burden of proof and must satisfy the judge as to the reasons why he or she should be released.

The reverse onus already exists in those situations. That is proof that the Liberal Party is not opposed in principle to the idea of reverse onus for release on bail.

As well, a person charged with murder, treason, certain war crimes or other rare indictable offences is automatically kept in detention until he or she is granted interim release after a hearing before a superior court of criminal jurisdiction.

We can therefore see that there are a variety of situations in which the principle of no pre-trial detention, a principle found in section 11 of the Charter, is already reversed in the Criminal Code. Thus there are various reasons that can justify the reverse onus.

Speaking as justice critic for the official opposition, as I said earlier, we would like to see this bill sent to a committee, but to the Standing Committee on Justice.

I stand to be corrected if information is wrong. The government is offering as its reason that this will expedite matters, that the Standing Committee on Justice is buried in work and that it would not be able to examine a bill like this expeditiously and effectively.

But a legislative committee will for the most part be composed of the same members—as the House is aware—because it is the members of the Standing Committee on Justice who have expertise and experience in this field.

We are simply going to divide them in half, and the work will not get done any faster.

Before addressing this subject, I would like to point out that the government has not answered certain questions. Here are a few examples.

When the government publicly announced its intention to rewrite some of our bail laws, there was interest and support but questions were asked. At the time, some of the concern, which no longer appears to exist, about the then long promised legislation, focused on whether the law would survive constitutional scrutiny. In my view, it most likely will, but if the bill should become law, we can expect to see challenges to the courts on the constitutionality of the bill.

However, most experts, leaving aside the constitutional issue, which most experts now seem to downplay, are still troubled with the larger issue, which is whether bail laws are an effective tool for cracking down on gun violence.

I believe the government would admit that bail has not been researched as extensively as other areas of our criminal justice system and that some of the most basic questions regarding the effectiveness of our bail laws as they exist today remain unanswered. For instance, how many people who are currently charged with gun crimes are actually granted bail? In a longitudinal study, how many individuals convicted of committing a gun crime have been released on bail? Under the current criminal provisions, it is possible for a person to actually reoffend while awaiting trial and reoffend in a firearm related offence. We do not have any of that information.

I noted the comments made by the member for Wild Rose, in response to members of an opposition party, when he said that we need to act. I agree that we need to act, but I do not think we need to act cautiously. We need to act in full knowledge so that we know that the legislation we bring forward will achieve the objectives that we want it to achieve.

We also want to ensure it will be effective. The worst thing any government or any Parliament can do is adopt legislation on the basis that it will make our communities safer but in the end does no such thing. It gives a false sense of security to Canadians, which is not a good thing. When Canadians realize that the legislation does not make them safer, it becomes that much more difficult to convince Canadians that other legislation is effective.

It is difficult to bring in legislation, but particularly legislation that restricts the scope of freedom, the liberty and the rights we all enjoy in particular situations. The bill is being touted as one that would make our communities safer. It may very well do that but we need the information.

In 1995 the Commission on Systemic Racism in the Ontario criminal justice system found that blacks accused of a crime were more likely than white people accused of a crime to be imprisoned before trial. That means to be denied bail while awaiting trial. That difference in the numbers could not be explained away or justified by the factors normally considered in granting bail.

In 2004 there were 125,871 Canadians in prison and awaiting trial, and 83,733 behind bars serving sentences. That is according to Statistics Canada.

I hope the government would agree that this bill should go before the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights. The government should bring us the information that will assure us and Canadians that should the bill be adopted, it will in fact be effective and achieve the objectives it is supposed to and make our country--

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for her work on the justice committee. I will take this opportunity to congratulate her on her appointment as justice critic, which often puts me on the receiving end of that criticism, but that is fine because that is the way our system works.

Actually there are about 35,000 individuals in Canada who are currently under a prohibition order. The answer to the hon. member's question is no, those prohibition orders do not always result from the serious offences that I set out, but could result from a number of other offences that may involve a firearm but are not listed in Bill C-35.

The bill groups three different groups of individuals together: those who have committed one of the eight serious offences that I listed, and I will not list them again; the three offences specifically related to firearms, firearms trafficking, possession for the purpose of trafficking and firearms smuggling; and those that are currently under a firearm prohibition order. Those are the three groups that are captured by the bill. All of them in some way knew they had committed an offence involving a firearm, a serious offence. They have been involved with illegal acts involving a firearm, such as trafficking or smuggling, or they are under an order not to be in possession of a firearm. They are all firearms related.

We are saying that if an individual is arrested for an offence involving a firearm and is before a judge, the onus is on the individual to prove why on balance the judge should grant bail. Bail is not a right in our system; it is something that can be obtained, but the individual is going to have to prove why he or she should receive it.

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I listened with great interest to what my colleague, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice, had to say.

I was struck by one of the figures he mentioned: that there are currently 30,000 Canadians who are prohibited from possessing a firearm.

Does he have more specific details than just that one number? Were these people found guilty of a criminal offence involving a firearm?

I am in a quandary. It is all very well and good to say that 30,000 Canadians are under a prohibition order to possess a firearm. That would presume obviously and clearly that those individuals have been convicted of some criminal offence, but it is not clear whether or not they have all been convicted of one of what we would call the serious offences on which Bill C-35 would actually place a reverse onus for bail. If not all of them, what percentage of them were actually convicted of the specific offences that would be touched by Bill C-35?

I would truly appreciate it if the parliamentary secretary would provide that information. If he cannot at this moment, I am sure he or the government officials would be more than happy to bring that information to committee, should this bill go to committee.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, it is a great pleasure today to rise to speak in support of Bill C-35. This government bill would amend the bail provisions of the Criminal Code to provide a reverse onus for firearm related offences.

It was with great interest that I listened to the speech of the hon. member for Windsor—Tecumseh and the exchange in questions and answers. I think parts of it were quite informative.

The government said it would tackle gun crimes with effective measures that would be targeted at the right group. That group, as all right thinking people know, are those who would use a firearm for a criminal purpose and not law-abiding firearms owners.

We have seen the effects of targeting the wrong the people. When we have a problem, we should all know intuitively that we have to target the problem and not target what is not the problem.

In Canada the law-abiding firearms community, people who are duck hunters or who represent us at the Olympics in shooting sports, are not the problem. The problem, as we all know, are those who would use a firearm in the commission of an offence against an innocent Canadian, against another person.

Like Bill C-10 on mandatory minimum penalties for serious and repeat firearm offences, Bill C-35 is appropriately directed at the gun crime problem that we must address in Canada.

I am proud that the government has come forward with this important legislation. It aims to protect Canadians from the threat of gun crimes.

In the context of studying and debating Bill C-10, both in the House and at the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights, we have heard from many witnesses, professors, criminal justice experts and police representatives, all describing the gun crime trend in Canada. We have received many statistics from the Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics. As a general overview, I believe it is fair to say that while there has been a decline in most firearm offences in Canada over the last few decades, there has been a growing problem in many parts of the country with respect to guns and gangs.

This is precisely why the government, in Bill C-10, has targeted specifically individuals who use handguns and other prohibited weapons in the commission of a crime and gangs that use firearms to victimize other Canadians.

In many areas the problem largely revolves around the drug trade or turf wars, particularly in many of our large urban centres. Police officers have expressed the concern for some time that they have come across more illegal guns, particularly handguns, in their investigations. The problem with guns, gangs and drugs is not only communicated to us by the police. There have been several cases reported on in the media in the last year to confirm the prevalence of gun violence in many different parts of Canada.

In the last year or so there has been the Dawson College shooting in which a student was killed and approximately 20 others were sent to hospital, many with very serious injuries.

There was the shooting of three police officers in Winnipeg late last fall. Earlier in the year a Windsor police officer was killed in the line of duty.

There was a shooting in London, Ontario last fall where the accused, charged with four counts of attempted murder, was released on bail. I will repeat that one. Bill C-35 seeks to address the issue of bail.

Also, there was the 2005 Boxing Day shooting in downtown Toronto, which resulted in the tragic death of another innocent young woman.

These are just a few examples, as Canada has on average a couple of hundred firearms homicides each year.

Some people may say that, as parliamentarians, we ought to be cautious and not react too swiftly with legislative reforms to address a few high profile horrendous cases. However, we must be alert to the undercurrent behind an emerging trend and be prepared to act decisively to address the problem.

I have always found it problematic when individuals say that it is just anecdotal or that it is just one example. Of course it is just one example. These are the life stories of many Canadians, in fact the life and death stories of many Canadians. It means something to them and to their families. We should all agree in the House that if we can prevent one of these anecdotal crimes, then we would be doing a great service to those individuals and our country.

Bill C-10 was the government's first step in tackling the problem of gun crimes. This initiative was coupled with other measures to help prevent crime, such as funding for programs directed at keeping at risk youth from getting involved with guns, gangs and drugs in the first place.

This is another aspect that we hear all the time at justice committee and public safety committee. People ask these questions. Why do we not go to the root cause of crime? Why do we not address funding shortfalls? Why we do we not put more resources to youth at risk? I am pleased to say we are doing that. We are addressing youth at risk. The Minister of Public Safety recently announced funding for programs targeting at youth at risk.

We are also using preventative measures such as putting police on the streets. From many jurisdictions where this has taken place, we know that putting police on the streets does have an impact on crime. However, sometimes there are those cases where the crime does happen. In spite of all the preventative measures we take and in spite of the police being on the street, someone commits a crime with a gun against another Canadian.

That is where our Criminal Code comes into place. It is our responsibility at the federal level and as parliamentarians to ensure that the Criminal Code is up to snuff, it is up to date, it is up to the task of preventing crime and protecting Canadians.

I feel that Bill C-35 is an important component of our plan to fight gun crime at the beginning of the criminal justice process. Bill C-35 deals with bail hearings. After people are charged, they are brought before the court for a bail hearing, unless they are released by the police because they do not pose a threat to public safety nor represent a risk of absconding.

During bail hearings, the prosecutor usually bears the onus of demonstrating why an accused should be denied bail. In some situations, the onus falls on the accused. Bill C-35 proposes to add other reverse onus situations to specifically include serious offences involving firearms.

Why does this make sense? Evidence has shown that someone who is involved in an offence regarding a firearm or someone who is violating a prohibition order involving a firearm could indeed pose a significantly greater threat than someone who perhaps stole a stereo, for example. We need to crack down on all crime. I cited an example earlier in my speech where someone, who is out on bail, committed horrific acts against innocent Canadians.

Bill C-35 proposes a reverse onus for the offences of weapons trafficking, possession for the purpose of trafficking and weapons smuggling. It also proposes a reverse onus for any indictable offence that involves a firearm or other regulated weapon if the offence is committed while the accused is under a weapons prohibition order.

It should be noted that this reverse onus is not limited to offences that involve the actual use of a firearm or other weapon.

Bill C-35 proposes a reverse onus for eight serious offences when committed with a firearm. Those offences are as follows: attempted murder, robbery, discharging a firearm with criminal intent, sexual assault with a firearm, aggravated sexual assault, kidnapping, hostage-taking or extortion.

Bill C-35 proposes another amendment to require the bail hearing court to consider the fact that a firearm was allegedly used in the commission of other indictable offences, when deciding whether the accused could be kept in custody in order to maintain confidence in the administration of justice.

Lastly, an amendment is proposed to provide that the courts must also consider whether the accused faces a minimum term of imprisonment of three years or more for a firearm related offence.

The new reverse onus situations proposed in Bill C-35 will assist in ensuring that persons involved in serious weapon related offences are not released back into the community without full consideration by the courts of the risks such individuals pose to the safety of the public. It will help address the underlying problem that has emerged in recent years with respect to guns, gangs and the drug trade.

When we talk about guns and gangs in the urban centres, we often focus on the urban centres. It is not limited to the urban centres. Firearms offences take place in probably all areas of Canada. In my province of New Brunswick and in my riding of Fundy Royal we hear about these offences. The Criminal Code applies equally to all areas of Canada because all Canadians are deserving of that protection. This is not something that is limited only to the cities.

We have heard overwhelmingly from the cities. We have heard from the city of Toronto, Canada's largest city, that this legislation is exactly what is needed to deal with some of the problems it is experiencing with gang and gun violence.

I urge all members, whether from a rural or an urban area, regardless of their political stripe, to listen to what the experts and front line workers have to say, those who work with victims, those who work in the justice field and those who work in corrections. Listen to what the mayors of the cities have to say about people who have committed offences, or charged with them, and are out on bail. Hear what they are saying about putting the onus on those individuals to prove why they should be out on bail, or released onto the streets, especially when the incident involved a firearm or a criminal act while they were on a prohibition order for a firearm.

I urge all hon. members to consider supporting this worthwhile bill.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I rise to address some comments to Bill C-35, a government bill that at its essence introduces the use of the reverse onus to a number of new offences under the Criminal Code and provides a framework within which that reverse onus would be applied in our courts.

Bill C-35 is typical of the government's agenda. It has consistently presented short, individual issue bills to the House that have tied up debate in the House quite extensively. This certainly has tied up the justice committee very extensively and has put us way behind in coping with those bills.

It was not necessary. This is all about a political and ideologically driven agenda of the government. If it were really serious about dealing with crime and these particular issues of crime, in this case gun related ones, we could have been moving much more quickly, effectively and efficiently by having a number of these bills combined into an omnibus bill.

I am happy to say that I have carried on some discussions with the new Minister of Justice. I am hoping that we may in fact get a more positive response from him than has been reflected by his predecessor or by the government to this point, so that Canadians can have assurances that gun crimes and other crimes, serious ones in particular, are being dealt with as effectively as possible by the House and by the government, and that the criminal justice system will serve them to its absolutely peak of efficiency.

That is not the case with the government, because to a great extent, and there are some elements in the bill that I think reflect it, the government really is not serious about getting tough on crime. What it really is serious about is using the misfortune of so many victims of crime for its own political ends: to get elected and to try to form a majority government. That is really what this is about. That, quite frankly, is to the government's shame.

Having said that, I note that this bill, like so many others that have been introduced, has some basically solid elements to it, but again like so many, our position on it is that the government may have very well strayed over into the extreme, which it has a very strong tendency to do. I think the government is repeating that here.

Because I think the bill is fixable in committee, even though the government is sending it to a legislative committee rather than the justice committee, I believe it can be amended to bring it into line and to make it more effective and more usable.

I think it is important to make this point, and again, this is to perhaps repudiate some of the sales job that has gone on from that party and the government around this particular bill. The point needs to be very clearly made because oftentimes I hear members of the Conservative Party who do not really understand our existing law trying to portray this new one as covering fields that have already been taken care of.

The reverse onus already applies in the situation whereby an individual accused has been charged with an indictable offence and released on bail and then is charged again. On the second time, the reverse onus applies to that, so they are not released on a second offence unless they can establish to the satisfaction of the court that they are not a safety concern for society as a whole. That is already in our existing law, as is the reverse onus in a number of other types of crimes. Organized crime, terrorism and certain drug trafficking, drug smuggling and drug producing offences all have the reverse onus already applied.

We could go on. A number of them are applicable at this point, as are some of the more serious ones such as murder, treason and war crimes. All of these have reverse onus already applicable. What this bill is proposing to do is to extend it to more serious offences. I believe the government's number was eight offences.

Again, the government may very well have crossed over the line on some of these. Our courts, all the way to the Supreme Court, have made it quite clear that reverse onus can be used in appropriate circumstances. Where it has been tested up to this point, the courts have supported its use in the sections of the code that I have already mentioned. The government may have crossed the line with some of these, so it will be important at the committee stage to take evidence to try to ascertain whether the government, as it has so often in the past, has taken an extreme position and whether we have to bring it back somewhat from that.

However, certainly there are areas in which we do need to use the reverse onus more extensively than we have up to this point, so we will be supporting the bill with the expectation that at committee we will be able to make the proper amendments.

The other thing that I think is really important to appreciate is the fact that the whole bill of course is open to an attack under the charter, so we have to be very careful with regard to the way it is drafted. There is some wording that is unusual, let me put it that way, wording that I have not seen in the Criminal Code in the past at any time. There may very well have to be some amendments made to make sure that it is not so general and so vague that it will be subject to an attack under the charter and therefore struck down. There may be amendments along those lines. I can see a couple of areas where that is probably going to be necessary in the course of the work that the committee will do.

There is another major point, and again I think it is to the shame of the Conservative Party, which constantly brings forward this kind of legislation without understanding, or perhaps caring, about the circumstances. In this bill, there are going to be some consequences in terms of additional pressure on our courts, on our police officers because of the additional time they will probably end up spending in court testifying, and certainly on our prosecutors and our judiciary.

In all of those cases, the costs of those additional judges, the extra courtrooms, the prosecutors and, in a number of cases, the costs of the defence counsel through the legal aid systems in the provinces, are borne by the provinces. Up to this point in the roughly one year that this government has been in place and has been introducing these bills, we have seen a total disregard on the part of the government to take into account those consequences.

We have not seen any analysis in the previous bills that we have had before the justice committee. Whatever analysis we had on costs was drawn out by the opposition parties. I will take some particular credit for that, but all of us have looked at it and have drawn some of it out so that we understand the consequences of passing this legislation.

Because the analysis has not been done, there have been no arrangements made by this federal government to in effect subsidize or in any way financially assist the provinces in meeting these cost commitments that we impose upon them. That of course is having a deleterious effect on the relationship between the provinces and the federal government, as we have seen in a number of other areas in the past when we as a federal legislature pass laws that commit the provinces to spending money and provide no assistance for them to do that.

I have to say with regard to costs that my biggest concern is the number of additional incarcerations. We have to expect that this will happen. It is an inevitable consequence of this bill and is what the bill is intended to do. There will be additional incarcerations and those incarcerations will be in institutions that are owned and operated by the provinces.

We have no idea of how many there will be. We attempted to see if the minister had any sense of how many when he was addressing the House this morning. As is so typical, the government has not done the analysis. That will have to come out of the work the committee does. This is probably where the major cost is going to be. It is a cost that is borne entirely by the provinces. At this point, the provinces will have no idea of how much that is going to be because the analysis has not been done at the federal level.

There is another point, though, with regard to that. We know from evidence before committee that all of our provincial institutions in every province, without exception, is either at capacity or has an overcapacity for most of the institutions that house alleged criminals pending their trials. They are all overcrowded or at best are at capacity. By adding additional bodies to those institutions as part of the incarceration group, we will be taxing the facilities beyond their ability to respond.

That is significant in two ways. A judge looking at that situation will be much more prone to say that he or she is going to release the person, that the person may in fact be a danger to society but the judge is going to release him or her because there is really no capacity to deal with the person. The provinces have not been able to afford to expand the physical plants, says the judge, so he or she is going to release the person simply because of that.

Or, what is much more common, and which causes one of these unintended consequences that the government never thinks about, is that we are going to have the situation whereby a person is ultimately either pleading guilty or is convicted and is before the court during sentencing after conviction saying that he or she had to spend six months, a year and maybe even longer in some cases in a facility that was totally inadequate by Canadian standards. We know that is going on right now. Those convicted persons are given extra credit for that time.

If the sentence is for five years, the court may very well say that the person has already spent a year incarcerated so the court is going to give credit for that. Plus, as a bonus, because the incarceration was so bad and the circumstances were so bad and the system is so poor, the court may give the person credit for another year or perhaps even more. That is beginning to happen. It is quite common to get two for one credits, but now the arguments are coming for three to one credits.

If we build this legal infrastructure without taking that into account and providing the financial resources to the provinces to provide adequate housing for people who are accused of crimes, that is going to be the consequence. Thus, at the end of the day, we are going to have people getting out of our federal institutions--that is where they end up if the sentence is for more than two years--at a much faster rate, which is the complete opposite of the intention of the government, certainly, and I think of most of us who are looking at this bill and at what we want for the criminal justice system.

We are in the situation where that needs to be looked at by committee. The bill is now going to a special legislative committee. This is obviously another attempt by the government to speed up the process of bills going through. It would be much faster if the government used my suggestion, which I have made repeatedly, of using the omnibus bill approach, but even there the reality is that the legislative committee cannot sit at the same time as the justice committee.

Again, I do not know if either the Minister of Justice or the House leader appreciate this, but the legislative committee cannot sit at the same time as the justice committee because it is a justice bill. We will be scrambling to try to find slots of time whereby those of us who are sitting on that committee, and I am assuming I will be one of them, will be able to fit it into our schedules. It probably is not going to save any time. It is going to be a slower process in many respects than if the bill had been sent to the justice committee.

I would point out again that this was done without consultation with the opposition parties. Again, this is a reflection of a course of conduct of just how serious the government is with regard to dealing with crime in this country.

At the end of the day, as a party we will be supporting this bill at second reading to go to committee, but at committee we will be expecting in some cases minor amendments and in other cases some fairly serious amendments to ensure that this does comply with our existing criminal justice system standards, the charter in particular, and also to get more background material so we fully understand the consequences of this legislation.