Bill C-473 (Historical)

Protection of Insignia of Military Orders, Decorations and Medals Act

An Act to protect insignia of military orders, decorations and medals of cultural significance for future generations

This enactment places restrictions on the transfer of insignia of military orders, decorations and medals of cultural significance to persons who are not residents of Canada.

[Lyn Elliot Sherwood, Executive Director, Heritage Group, Department of Canadian Heritage]

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the committee.

I believe the clerk of the committee has circulated copies of the presentation in both official languages.

There are four areas that we would like to briefly review today. The first is the different approaches adopted by the Cultural Property Export and Import Act and Bill C-473 with respect to the retention of important heritage in Canada.

In keeping with federal jurisdiction over matters of international trade, the cultural property act controls export. That is the term that is used in that act. Export permits are required for all insignia that are defined in the Canadian cultural property export control list, which is a regulation under the cultural property act. Permits are required any time insignia leave Canada for any period of time, for any reason, and irrespective of who the owner or exporter is or who the recipient of the export will be.

In cases of permanent export, if insignia are deemed to be of outstanding significance and national importance, export may be delayed. It's essentially a time out in the export process. That delay is intended to provide an opportunity for designated Canadian museums and public authorities to acquire the insignia.

A grant program exists to assist institutions in the purchase of items threatened with export, and special tax incentives also encourage donations of outstanding insignia to public institutions.

Bill C-473, as we read it, would prohibit the transfer of insignia of cultural importance to non-residents unless the insignia are first offered for sale to the Canadian Museum of Civilization, the Canadian War Museum, or the Department of Canadian Heritage, but those provisions would not apply in cases of transfer to a near relative or an heir.

For consideration by the committee, we would note that the difference in language between the Cultural Property Export and Import Act, which uses the term “export”, and the language in the bill, which uses the term “transfer to a non-resident”, may result in questions about what sorts of transactions are covered by the bill, and we would note that there is also a risk that the phrase “transfer to a non-resident” in the bill does carry with it the risk that questions could be raised related to provincial jurisdiction over the regulation of trade and commerce involving property within a province.

The second issue that we would like to put before the committee is the approach to the definition of what insignia are covered. Under the Cultural Property Export and Import Act, military insignia that are controlled for export must be more than 50 years old and must have a fair market value in Canada of more than $3,000. The value threshold is used in essence as the means, the proxy, for defining those insignia that are most likely to be of outstanding significance and of national importance, which are the criteria set forth in the act.

Bill C-473 covers insignia awarded by Her Majesty in right of Canada, which we understand therefore to be insignia awarded after 1967. Prior to 1967, Canadian insignia were awarded by Her Majesty the Queen in right of the United Kingdom, and legally there is a distinction. The bill would also require the insignia to be of cultural significance, with the concept to be defined in regulation.

For the committee's consideration, we note that the earliest of the insignia covered by the bill, those granted in 1967, will be 50 years old in 2017. At that point, depending on their value, they could be covered both by the Cultural Property Export and Import Act and by the provisions in Bill C-473. As a result, we believe there is some risk that Canadians could be confused about their legal obligations, which are somewhat different under the existing legislation and under the proposed legislation.

The third issue we would like to raise relates to the determination of “fair market value”. This is an exercise in obscure dictionary definitions and Revenue Canada definitions. Mr. Chair, I ask the committee to bear with me as I work through that.

The term “fair market value” is used in both the cultural property act and Bill C-473, but in very different contexts. It's used in the cultural property act in reference to the role of the Canadian Cultural Property Export Review Board in determining the importance and value of objects that are donated or sold to Canadian institutions and public authorities. It's used very specifically to determine the value for the tax certificate, the tax incentive.

A different term is used in the cultural property act for the board's role in relation to situations where an object is subject to export delay and there may be disagreement between the owner of the object and a potential Canadian purchaser as to what would constitute a fair offer. The term in that context used in the cultural property act is “fair cash offer” rather than “fair market value”. The amount of a fair cash offer might be the same as fair market value, but it doesn't have to be. Fair market value is a larger concept that takes into account the purchasing power of foreign buyers—in essence, whatever anyone anywhere is prepared to pay for an object. The term “fair cash offer” is used to refer to what a fair offer would be within the Canadian context. So fair market value is anywhere in the world; fair cash offer is in the context of the Canadian market.

In clause 6, Bill C-473 sets out a role for the Canadian Cultural Property Export Review Board in assessing the value of an insignia that would be offered up for sale to the institutions that are listed in the bill.

The bill uses the term “fair market value” for the function that is described in the cultural property act as determining a fair cash offer. There is a risk of confusion concerning which meaning is intended and therefore what considerations of the Cultural Property Export Review Board would have to take into consideration in determining value.

Finally we'd like to draw the committee's attention to the issue of maximum fines for violations. The cultural property act and Bill C-473 take different approaches to the maximum fines for violations of their provisions. The act specifies a specific dollar amount for a maximum penalty. For illegal export, the maximum fine is $5,000 on summary conviction and $25,000 on indictment. Bill C-473 provides for a penalty for summary conviction in any amount up to five times the fair market value of the insignia in question, rather than specifying a dollar amount.

We would draw to the committee's attention that this provision in the bill could possibly result in a situation where the penalty for the illegal transfer of a modern medal could be greater than the penalty set out in the cultural property act for the illegal export of a historic model, such as the Victoria Cross. We would also note that the norm in federal legislation is a specific amount to provide clarity to Canadians as to what the penalties could be.

Mr. Chair, that concludes my presentation on behalf of the Department of Canadian Heritage. At the appropriate time we'd be pleased to answer any questions the committee may have.

[Tom Scrimger, Assistant Deputy Minister, Citizenship and Heritage, Department of Canadian Heritage]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you again for inviting us to make this presentation to the committee. We are pleased to be here today to assist the committee in its consideration of private member's bill C-473.

We thought it would be useful to provide some context for the bill in terms of existing federal legislation. The Cultural Property Import and Export Act, which was enacted in 1977, protects objects of heritage value.

We have a few very brief comments, Mr. Chair.

I am going to give the floor to my colleague Ms. Elliot Sherwood, who will provide you with this information.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Welcome to everyone.

Today is the 24th meeting of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs, and we have before the committee, pursuant to the order of reference of Thursday, April 15, 2010, Bill C-473, An Act to protect insignia of military orders, decorations and medals of cultural significance for future generations.

Before we go into the meeting, I would ask for the consent of the committee to have Mr. Sweet assume the chair and chair this meeting, because this is my bill.

[Pierre Allard]

It is my understanding that the Cultural Property Export and Import Act contains regulations under which cultural property must be 50 years old or over, and that there is a sort of a 90-day waiting period during which an attempt is made to find people who would be prepared to buy the significant cultural property in question.

I also think that the $3,000 maximum is unrealistic. The 90-day period might be logical, but I think that amending the requirement that the property be at least 50 years old would perhaps be the best way to achieve what you're trying to accomplish through Bill C-473.

[Brad White, Dominion Secretary, Dominion Command, Royal Canadian Legion]

Thank you, Madam Chair and members of the committee.

It's a great pleasure to appear in front of the committee once again. On behalf of the dominion president of the Royal Canadian Legion, Comrade Patricia Varga, we offer our support to your continuing advocacy on behalf of all the veterans of all ages and their families.

You have a copy of our presentation in French and English. We will answer your questions in either language.

At this point in time the Legion is not in a position to support Bill C-473, or Bill C-208 for that matter. However, the Legion does recognize and support the need and particularly the desire to retain historically and culturally significant military orders, decorations, and medals within Canada. This is a noble but perhaps unachievable objective.

The two main reasons for not supporting the bill are as follows. First, it will not be effective. In order for legislation such as this to work, the barn door has to be fully closed. There are too many loopholes that can be opened up and too many medals can slip out. How do you account for them all? This bill leaves it partially open, so significant orders, decorations, and medals will be able to leave Canada. If enacted, Bill C-473 would likely drive the sale of significant medals underground and all visibility of transactions would be lost. These medals are bought and sold every day in large quantities and in international markets. All you have to do to really verify it is check on eBay, where basically the run-of-the mill medals, and not the high-end items, can be found at any point in time.

Enacting Bill C-473 would infringe on the rights of Canadians to own and dispose of their own private property as they see fit. This is a right that should not be trampled upon lightly. This right is already restricted to a degree by the Cultural Property Export and Import Act. If it is not sufficient to retain historically and culturally significant medals within Canada, then that specific act needs to be amended. We do not feel that additional overlapping legislation such as this is required.

There are a number of other problems with Bill C-473 that have been identified previously but have somehow not been addressed in the present version of this private member's bill. Some of these, in no particular order of importance, are as follows.

One is terminology. In common parlance, only orders have insignia. Decorations such as the Victoria Cross and medals are simply referred to as medals. We should be discussing orders, decorations, and medals, ODM.

Another problem is responsiveness to the feedback. In December 2009 we received confirmation that amendments would be made to the bill in response to the comments that we in the Legion made and forwarded. This included the definition of “near relatives”, the transfer of medals outside of Canada, the expansion of the list of museums and organizations that these medals could be offered to, and the addition of a maximum amount of any penalty imposed. It does not appear that any of these recommendations have been followed up on in the present bill.

We're also concerned about acceptable museums. Only the Canadian War Museum, the Canadian Museum of Civilization, and the Department of Canadian Heritage are deemed acceptable recipients for these types of medals. This overlooks a large number of provincial, regional, and local museums, as well as military museums and commands and branches of the Royal Canadian Legion. Other museums or veterans organizations that might have museums, such as ANAVETS, might be interested in acquiring these types of medals, by purchase or otherwise.

Funding is another issue. Most, if not all, museums have very limited acquisition budgets. To be effective, this bill would need to ensure that there is a well-funded national acquisition budget policy. Otherwise, these medals offered for sale might well leave Canada because there are no funds to purchase them.

And then there's the obligation to acquire. Most, if not all, museums have limited storage and display space. Just because an offered medal may be historically or culturally significant, a museum should not be obligated to purchase it if it does not fit into its collection mandate.

Finally, there's the market for the current orders, decorations, and medals. There is a perception that modern medals do not have much value and therefore perhaps would not be affected by legislation such as this. This is incorrect. Should they come onto the open market, modern medal groups, especially those with gallantry awards from Afghanistan, would command high prices.

Examples of the new British Conspicuous Gallantry Cross, which was introduced in 1993, have been sold at auction with a suggested value of £6,000 to £8,000, or $9,500 or $12,700 Canadian funds. Similar Canadian medal groups containing new gallantry awards could be expected to command very similar prices. Modern groups should be included in any legislation.

There was an observation in the ACVA minutes of June 17 that the Cultural Property Export and Import Act only applied to items that were over 50 years old, and therefore would not be included in this legislation. If this is correct, then the act should be amended to include them as well.

In summary, at this juncture, unless the above issues can be resolved, the Royal Canadian Legion cannot support or offer its support to Bill C-473. We recommend instead that the Cultural Property Export and Import Act be amended to achieve these objectives in the proposed legislation in a less confusing and restrictive manner.

For your information as well, we have gone out to other veterans organizations. I would offer that the views expressed above by the Royal Canadian Legion are also shared by the Army, Navy and Air Force Veterans in Canada Association; the Canadian Naval Air Group; the Royal Canadian Naval Association; the Naval Officers' Association of Canada; the Hong Kong Veterans Commemorative Association; the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Veterans' Association; the National Aboriginal Veterans Association; the Canadian Association of Veterans in United Nations Peacekeeping; and finally, the Gulf War Veterans Association.

That concludes our presentation today. We would be more than glad to accept your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Welcome to meeting number 23 of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs. Pursuant to the order of reference of Thursday, April 15, 2010, we are examining BillC-473, an act to protect insignia of military orders, decorations, and medals of cultural significance for future generations.

Today the witnesses are from the Royal Canadian Legion: Pierre Allard, service bureau director, Dominion Command; and Brad White, dominion secretary, Dominion Command. Welcome, gentlemen.

At this particular time, because this bill happens to have been presented by me, I am going to recuse myself from the chair and ask the Honourable Judy Sgro, if she would, to please take the chair for me.

Thank you, Judy.

[Ronald Griffis, National President, Canadian Association of Veterans in United Nations Peacekeeping]

Thank you, sir.

Honourable members of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen, thank you for inviting the Canadian Association of Veterans in United Nations Peacekeeping, CAVUNP, Canada's pre-eminent peacekeeping veterans association, and the Canadian Peacekeeping Veterans Association, CPVA, to this committee to make comments and suggestions pertaining to Bill C-473, An Act to protect insignia of military orders, decorations and medals of cultural significance for future generations.

My name is Ron Griffis. I'm the national president of the Canadian Association of Veterans in United Nations Peacekeeping. I have been given authority by the president of the Canadian Peacekeeping Veterans Association, Mr. Ray Kokkonen, to speak on their behalf.

It should also be noted that I am a member in good standing with that particular organization, and that as recently as this Saturday, Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday, I was at a convention in Winnipeg and in the company of the presidents of several veterans associations. As I understood the situation, they were not aware of Bill C-473.

Our two associations, CAVUNP and CPVA, work hand in hand on most, if not all, veterans' issues. To prepare for this matter, I sought information and suggestions from our colleagues.

All of my colleagues were not aware of Bill C-473 and were surprised at my request. The comments I have received are mainly their personal opinions on what should happen with respect to their medals and awards. I respectfully suggest that Bill C-473 has not received wide circulation.

In general, our associations support the bill. We are aware of things that have occurred in the past that have required the federal government to act very quickly to prevent military orders, decorations, and medals of cultural significance from leaving the country or being sold on such venues as eBay.

This particular bill would cause sellers or persons wishing to dispose of such items of cultural significance to follow the letter of the law and permit the various authorities to act as required. It has been suggested by my colleagues that this type of legislation is not necessarily required in most cases, as it seems that what it would take is a simple act of will on the part of the government. For instance, when something of considerable significance to the country comes on the open market, it may simply be a matter of the government telling the bureaucrats to go and get it.

The act provides a balance that may be used in circumstances requiring some official undertakings. It may also be used to provide a cooling-off period to permit authorities to research an issue to determine what, if any, cultural significance a particular item may have.

Time restrictions have prevented me from contacting my friend and colleague, retired Colonel Donald Ethell. Recently, on April 8, 2010, Colonel Ethell was appointed as the Lieutenant Governor of the Province Alberta. I wanted to contact him to ascertain his view on this subject.

Colonel Ethell is a member of the Canadian Association of Veterans in United Nations Peacekeeping and, as you are perhaps aware, is Canada's most decorated peacekeeping veteran. Prior to his appointment, Colonel Ethell was our association's liaison officer with Veterans Affairs Canada.

From my personal knowledge of my friend, I am quite certain he would have an opinion with respect to this bill. While I do not speak for Colonel Ethell, knowing what I know of my friend and colleague, I respectfully suggest that he would support this bill.

As I have mentioned, in short, our associations support this legislation and trust it will be passed into law.

Once again, thank you for the opportunity to appear before this honourable committee to make comments.

In the service of peace, thank you.

[Mark O'Neill]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I thank the committee for this opportunity to comment on Bill C-473. We're pleased to do so on behalf of the Canadian War Museum and are greatly honoured to be here before the committee today.

We certainly appreciate the bill's underlying spirit as outlined by Mr. Schellenberger. We share the conviction that Canada must preserve and promote its military history, which of course includes the service and sacrifice of our veterans. This is why one of the key messages of the Canadian War Museum is “I must remember”.

For the record, I must say that the Canadian War Museum, an affiliate of the Canadian Museum of Civilization Corporation, an independent agency of the crown, can neither endorse or oppose legislation before Parliament, as you know. I am pleased, however, to share some facts and observations that may assist you in your deliberations and the important work you do.

In my remarks, I will briefly speak to the significance and extent of our current collection of medals and insignia. I will give an overview of our current acquisition process, and I will discuss some of the ways in which the bill could impact the museum. Then I will be happy to answer any questions.

As you know, the Canadian War Museum was given a mandate, as determined by Parliament, to collect, preserve, interpret and display military artifacts of national significance. The museum is charged with educating Canadians about their military heritage and encouraging them to reflect on what veterans endured for their sake.

Military medals and insignia are part of that heritage. They are powerful symbols of the service, dedication and courage of the men and women who have worn the Canadian uniform. They have an important place in the national museum commemorating our military history.

At present, the War Museum has about 4,500 items in its collection of medals. The collection is restricted to decorations awarded to Canadians or foreign nationals while in the service of Canada. Some are displayed in our permanent exhibition galleries, which explore Canada's military history from earliest times to the present day. Others are held in safekeeping among our national treasures. All assist in the preservation and the telling of our national story.

The vast majority of these artifacts were donated to the War Museum by service members or their families. For example, just in the past five years since the new museum opened in 2005, we have acquired about 190 medal sets, 164 of which were donated by their owners. Among the most recent donations were two Victoria Crosses, one from the First World War and the other from the Second World War. The financial compensation available to donors is a tax benefit equal to the medal's assessed value.

As mentioned, the museum has seldom purchased medals or insignia. We have done so only when the artifact had outstanding significance and the funds were available. The museum recently purchased a Victoria Cross. It was one of three such medals awarded during the First World War to residents living on the same street in Winnipeg, which was renamed Valour Road in their honour. The medal is of course incredibly valuable to the museum and the country, and was purchased at an auction.

Regardless of whether it is through donation or purchase, the museum will not add a medal to its collection unless it is in keeping with the museum's mandate and satisfies a number of criteria. For example, the museum must determine whether the medal is authentic and whether the person making the offer is legitimate.

Before purchasing an artifact, the museum must of course determine whether the object is of outstanding significance to Canada's military heritage or whether it fills a significant void in the museum's current collection.

That's the background, Mr. Chair.

I'll turn briefly to the bill itself and highlight some criteria or elements of the bill that may have an impact on the War Museum's current acquisition process.

As I mentioned, we don't currently purchase medals as a matter of course, and therefore we don't maintain a significant budget for that purpose. So if Bill C-473 is passed as is, the museum will require additional funding to allow the purchase of medals at assessed values.

Another issue I would like to bring to your attention is the 120-day window for the museum to accept or decline an invitation to purchase a medal at fair market value. First, artifact appraisals conducted by a national museum must be quite thorough, as I'm sure you can imagine, and the appraisal can be a time-consuming process. We would not want to make those determinations with undue haste. And second, if the medal is deemed to be of significant value, it could take time to secure the necessary funds.

In light of these realities, we believe that Parliament should consider an amendment to paragraph 3(1)(b) of the bill that would instead indicate that a government institution has 120 days to respond to a written offer before the owner can transfer the insignia to a non-resident. That would give the museum more time to assess the medal and, if required, obtain the necessary funds.

Finally, the museum has always had the authority necessary to make its own decisions about whether artifacts should be added to the national collection. The museum has always based those decisions on the facts of the case in question, free from any influence or external pressure.

As stated in section 27 of the Museums Act, “No directive shall be given to a museum...with respect to...the acquisition, disposal, conservation or use of any museum material relevant to its activities”.

We would welcome an addition to Bill C-473 that would explicitly safeguard the integrity and independence of the museum's decision-making process. That could be ensured by expressly stating that the museum's decision to accept or decline an offer is final and not subject to further review.

Those are my opening remarks, Mr. Chair. Thank you for this opportunity. I would be pleased to answer any questions that members may have.

[Gary Schellenberger, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Yes, Mr. Chair.

I thank you very much for allowing me to be here. I'm unaccustomed to being on this end of the table, as I usually sit at the other end, but today I welcome this opportunity to speak to you.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Members of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs, I'm here today to speak in support of my private member's bill, Bill C-473, which focuses on the protection of military medals, orders, and decorations awarded to Canadians who have selflessly put themselves in harm's way in the defence of Canada. I hope you will support this bill and pass it quickly through this committee.

As you know, generations of Canadian veterans, through their courage, determination, and sacrifice, have helped to protect the Canadian values of freedom, democracy, and rule of law, both at home and abroad. This meeting today to discuss Bill C-473 allows us to reflect upon the importance of Canada's military heritage and the role our government and federal institutions play in commemorating and maintaining it.

On any given day, approximately 8,000 Canadian Forces personnel are preparing for, engaging in, or returning from overseas missions. They follow in the footsteps of Canadians who for more than 200 years have answered the call and have sacrificed all they knew--all the comforts, love, and safety of home--in order to defend the freedom of others.

The efforts and sacrifices of Canada's armed forces throughout history--and even as we sit in this room today--must not be forgotten. They must be honoured as an integral part of Canada's heritage.

Bill C-473 recognizes their importance and the importance of the honours and awards given to them in recognition of their sacrifices. This government recognizes the need to protect our military heritage.

Certain medals and other honours are already protected through legislation. Twenty-five years ago, the Mulroney government responded to the need to protect Canada's heritage by introducing the Cultural Property Export and Import Act. This act strikes a balance between the need to protect the nation's heritage and the property rights of private owners. That same approach is what I have aimed for with Bill C-473.

The Cultural Property Export and Import Act includes, among other elements, a system of cultural property export control that requires export permits for a range of cultural property, including medals. This existing act is an important tool in helping to keep objects of outstanding significance and national importance in Canada.

Let me explain how this works in relation to historic medals in order to set Bill C-473 in the broader context of heritage protection. Regulations under the Cultural Property Export and Import Act specify categories of objects that require a permit to leave Canada for any reason—temporarily or permanently. Military medals, orders, and decorations are of course included, but, like other protected objects, they must be at least 50 years old. Export permits are refused for objects that are deemed to be of outstanding significance and national importance.

That refusal may be appealed to the Canadian Cultural Property Export Review Board. On appeal, the board may create a delay period of up to six months to allow Canadian cultural institutions the opportunity to purchase the object in question so that it may remain in Canada. During the delay period, a program of grants is available from the Department of Canadian Heritage to assist institutions in purchasing these national treasures.

Bill C-473 would provide a similar opportunity by requiring owners to offer the Canadian Museum of Civilization Corporation and other cultural institutions the right of first refusal before transferring certain military medals, orders, and decorations to non-residents. Therefore, we have to achieve the goal of balancing the rights of private property owners with maintaining and commemorating an important part of Canadian history.

Creating stricter regulations is one tool to stop owners who want to sell military medals outside of the country, but I believe it is also important to encourage Canadians to donate their medals to museums, where they can be preserved for future generations, rather than selling them to collectors. Under the Cultural Property Export and Import Act, a system of special tax incentives exists to provide further encouragement for owners to donate outstanding historical medals to Canadian institutions. This will be expanded to include all military medals, awards, insignia, and honours.

When I originally tabled Bill C-473, I indicated that my objective was to keep important military medals, orders, and decorations in Canada. That is also our government's long-held objective.

Bill C-473 would also balance the rights of individual owners of these military honours with the desire to protect them for the public. That is also the long-held public policy of the government, as evidenced in the Cultural Property Export and Import Act.

Historic medals, decorations, or other honours have been well served by the existing act. Recent examples demonstrate this.

Through the export controls, grant system, and tax provisions of the act, the Victoria Cross of John MacGregor was acquired by the Canadian War Museum for the benefit of all Canadians.

It is through this effective legislation that the Government of Canada acted to ensure that Fred Topham's Victoria Cross was not lost to Canada.

The act also enabled the government to take measures to ensure that the medals of Lieutenant-Colonel Cecil Merritt and Sergeant William Merrifield were retained in a public institution in Canada.

It is time for our modern military medals to receive the same protection accorded to our historic medals and that is what Bill C-473 seeks to achieve. Bill C-473 recognizes the important role played by federal museums as custodians of our military heritage.

The Canadian Museum of Civilization and the Canadian War Museum, together with other museums across the country, including the Canadian Forces museums, take on the task of preserving our military heritage. It is important that as parliamentarians we act to ensure the successes of these vital and important cultural remembrance centres.

In my riding of Perth—Wellington, as well as in many of your own respective ridings, local historians and small museums are playing an enormous part in maintaining the proud record of Canadian military achievements. There have been efforts made by people like Dave Thomson of St. George, Ontario, and Philip Fowler and David Gazelle, who, on behalf of a group of Stratford citizens, have purchased several medals won by residents of Perth County and returned these to the Stratford Perth Museum with the help of its director, Linda Carter.

Over the past two years, the following medals have been saved and donated to this museum, where they will be forever protected: Sergeant Lorne Wesley Brothers, World War I British War Medal, a man I knew many years ago; Private George Grimditch, World War I Service Medal and Victory Medal; Lieutenant William Warren Davidson, World War I British War Medal and Victory Medal; Private Douglas Thomas Hamilton, World War I Silver Cross; and Private George Buckingham, World War I Service Medal, another man I knew in my earlier days, a very elderly man. I never realized until I read this about his medals that he was in the First World War. He was in private business in later years. And there was Private Alexander Connolly, whose World War I British War Medal and Victory Medal were also protected.

Canada's military history collections are part of the heritage of all Canadians. In some respects, they matter most to those who have grown up in the peaceful aftermath of war and to those who have adopted Canada as a home free from the tragedies of other lands. The story of our military past is understood and made meaningful to Canadians, many of whom have no direct experience of war or the part played by conflict in our history.

Museums, of course, are much more than collections of objects. With artifacts as material evidence, they illuminate and document our history. Military museums are unique in their commemorative role and they're uniquely placed as repositories of important objects, such as military medals, orders, and decorations that tell the story of the sacrifices of our brave Canadians in uniform.

This government has recognized the importance of preserving our military heritage, both through legislation and through the establishment of museums. Bill C-473 speaks of the importance of our military heritage and fills an important gap by focusing on Canada's modern military honours.

Bill C-473 would ensure that federal museums would be given the opportunity to acquire and protect modern military medals, orders, and decorations, which are no less deserving than those given 50 or 100 years ago to brave Canadians. For the spirit of the country and the courage of its people, I am pleased to be here to discuss Bill C-473. I urge all members to quickly pass this bill through committee.

I will be happy to answer any questions in the remaining time allotted.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Well, in fact I was just going to go into that.

Because of a motion passed in the House, our meeting this Thursday is cancelled. President Calderon will be speaking in the House at that time. That will push everything back.

Right now at this point, the subjects we have are the consideration and of course the approval of our draft report, and then Bill C-473, and witnesses with that, of course. Then we will have the veterans' use of food banks and that will be taking up the rest of our calendar.

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

It has to do with the new calendar. I noticed some changes. The old calendar we had in March included a study on suicide, and it is no longer there. But I think we agreed in March that one of our next studies would focus on suicide.

On Tuesday, I found out that we would be studying veteran homelessness later. But I did not understand that discussing it in the steering committee automatically meant that we would study it. In March, I thought that the calendar had been determined and that we would be studying the issue of veteran suicide before the end of June.

I understand that Bill C-473 takes precedence, because it is a bill. We did not object to that, because that is how things work. But when I looked at the new schedule, I was very surprised to see that the study on suicide had completely disappeared and was no longer on the calendar for the months leading up to June.

[Greg Kerr, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

Mr. Chair, I wonder if I could quickly run through a couple of items to get them on the record.

There are two things we talked about before. One is moving on with the review of the issue of disability pensions. We've talked about it and gone around it; I'd like to urge us to move on and take a look at it. It's an issue that's been raised by many organizations. I talked to Madam Sgro about it, and I know others have talked about it. I'd like to urge us to get that on the agenda as soon as we can, wherever it fits. I think it's important.

The other thing is to move Bill C-473 along through the process as quickly as possible. This is the issue of how we deal with medals, how we look after medals, and so on. I know we have to report back.

If everybody's in agreement, I'd like to see those items move forward without interfering with the normal agenda.

Thank you.

Protection of Insignia of Military Orders, Decorations and Medals Act

[Gary Schellenberger, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleagues from all parties for the support on my private member's bill, Bill C-473.

On any given day, approximately 8,000 Canadian Forces personnel are preparing for, engaging in, or are returning from an overseas mission. They follow in the footsteps of Canadians who for more than 200 years have answered the call and sacrificed all they knew, all the comforts, love and safety of home in order to defend the freedoms of others.

The efforts and sacrifices of Canada's armed forces throughout history and as we speak must not be forgotten.

More than 30 years ago, at a time when World War II and the Korean war were still fresh in our memories, the Government of Canada responded to the need to protect Canada's heritage by introducing the Cultural Property Export and Import Act. This act seeks balance between the need to protect the nation's heritage and the property rights of private owners.

Regulations under the Cultural Property Export and Import Act specify categories of objects which require a permit to leave Canada for any reason temporarily or permanently. Military medals, orders and decorations are of course included but, like other protected objects, they must be 50 years old.

It is time for our modern medals to receive the same protection accorded to our historic medals and that is what this bill, Bill C-473, seeks to achieve.

Bill C-473 speaks to the importance of our military heritage. As well, it fills an important gap by focusing on Canada's modern military honours.

Bill C-473 will ensure that federal museums are given the opportunity to acquire and protect modern military medals, orders and decorations which are no less deserving than those given 50 or 100 years ago to brave Canadians.

This enactment places restrictions on the transfer of insignia of military orders, decorations and medals of cultural significance to persons who are not residents of Canada.

As the House knows, there are Canadians actively seeking to protect our military medals by keeping them in Canada. For example, Dave Thomson from St. George, Ontario, is known by many as the “medal detector” for his hobby of repatriating Canadian medals from Internet auction sites like eBay. He recently found three first world war medals belonging to Lance-Corporal Walter Clemens Leslie who was born in my riding of Perth—Wellington. I think they have been returned now to the Stratford Perth Museum.

In the same way, this bill still provides fair market value to anyone who wishes to sell an insignia awarded under the authority of Her Majesty in Right of Canada, but they must provide first right of refusal to the Government of Canada by submitting an offer to the Canadian War Museum, the Canadian Museum of Civilization or the Department of Canadian Heritage.

My inspiration for this bill comes from the veterans and future veterans from my riding and across Canada who serve or have served our country. This bill will ensure the accolades from their acts of bravery will remain on Canadian soil and will continue to honour them as part of our Canadian heritage.

[Chris Charlton, NDP, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise in the House tonight to speak to Bill C-473, An Act to protect insignia of military orders, decorations and medals of cultural significance for future generations.

Canadian veterans have helped to ensure that we live in a free country and have aided in spreading peace and security throughout the world. They have done that with courage, determination and at great sacrifice. In bestowing military medals, decorations and orders, our country recognizes the sacrifices and achievements of those who have served and those who serve today.

The men and women who wear those medals do so with pride, devotion, loyalty and dignity. Yet, when I have had the chance to speak with veterans in my hometown of Hamilton, like the exceptional men and women at Royal Canadian Legion Branch 163 on the Mountain, it is also clear that they are wearing those medals for the 118,000 Canadians who served their country and never had the chance to wear theirs because they made the ultimate sacrifice. From that perspective there can be little doubt that the principles underlying Bill C-473 deserve our support.

As the member for Perth—Wellington rightly pointed out in his opening remarks, some medals and honours are already protected in legislation. More than 30 years ago, at a time when World War II and the Korean War were still fresh in our memories, the Government of Canada responded to the need to protect Canada's heritage by introducing the Cultural Property Export and Import Act. It requires export permits for a range of cultural property, including medals. Yet, it offers that protection only if the military medals, orders and decorations are at least 50 years old.

More recent military honours therefore are not controlled for export. They may be freely sold and taken out of the country, out of the reach of Canadians and our public museums. I agree with the member for Perth—Wellington that this is wrong, but I am not sure that the bill, as currently written, is the best vehicle for achieving our shared objective.

Let me take a few moments here to outline some of my concerns with the view to getting the bill to committee and hopefully having most of them addressed before we have to take the third and final vote in the House. I want to start by reading the summary of Bill C-473. It states:

This enactment places restrictions on the transfer of insignia of military orders, decorations and medals of cultural significance to persons who are not residents of Canada.

In essence, that is what this bill is all about. It suggests that military medals will be kept in Canada because they will no longer be transferrable to someone who is neither a citizen nor a permanent resident of Canada. On that general point, I have no quarrel. But I am not sure that the bill achieves that objective.

First, let us look at paragraphs 3(2)(a) and (b) which state that the prohibition on exporting medals does not apply to the transfer of an insignia to a near relative of the owner of the insignia. Paragraph (b) refers to an heir of the owner of the insignia upon the death of the owner. Obviously, both the near relative and the heir of the owner could reside outside of Canada.

If the goal of the bill is to keep all medals in Canada, the bill before us today does not achieve that objective. I believe that the exceptions are reasonable, but it is unclear to me whether this was a deliberate or an inadvertent outcome of the bill as drafted. Perhaps even more troubling is the exclusion of spouses in the definition of a near relative. The bill talks about parents, children, brothers, sisters, grandparents and heirs. Perhaps it is assumed that spouses will be heirs, but I think that the inclusion of spouses ought to be made explicit.

In bestowing military orders, decorations and medals, our country is recognizing the sacrifices and achievements of those who have served the cause of peace and freedom throughout the world, but the sacrifices made by family members, as their loved ones serve our country, must also be acknowledged and spouses in particular deserve special recognition. In this bill I would strongly urge that the inclusion of spouses be made explicit.

The next issue I would like to address can best be expressed by comparing the bill that is before us today to a similar bill that was introduced by my NDP colleague, the member for Sackville—Eastern Shore. I think members on all sides of the House would agree that veterans have no stronger advocate in the House than the member for Sackville--Eastern Shore. He introduced a similar bill long before the one that we are debating today was tabled, but as the luck of the draw would have it, we are debating Bill C-473 today rather than his bill, Bill C-208.

I said that it was a similar bill deliberately. They share the same goal, but in my view Bill C-208 takes a better, more comprehensive approach. Its summary states:

This enactment prohibits the sale or export for sale of any medal awarded by the Government of Canada in respect of service with the Canadian Forces or the Royal Canadian Mounted Police or in respect of service as a police officer outside Canada on behalf of the Government of Canada.

It differs from the bill before us today with two important respects. First, it includes medals awarded to the RCMP or any other police officer who serves our country outside Canada. As we know, many police officers serve overseas, and the medals they receive honour their courage, valour and selfless contribution to our international efforts. Why would we treat their medals any differently than we would the medals of veterans?

If the intent of this bill is to preserve our heritage, then clearly RCMP honours ought to be protected as well. I do not believe there would be a huge backlash from veterans on this point. In fact, when the NDP's Bill C-201 was before this House, not a single veteran complained to me that it dealt with pension fairness for both veterans and the RCMP. On the contrary, the only backlash about that bill was that the Liberals and the Conservatives defeated every clause of the bill in committee, thereby keeping in place the unfair existing system that unjustly reduces the pension benefits of retired and disabled Canadian Forces and RCMP personnel.

The second difference between the bill that is before us today and Bill C-208 is equally important. Bill C-208 does not just prevent medals from being exported out of the country, it actually prohibits the sale of those medals. That is a crucial distinction.

Medals and insignia are priceless honours. Men and women wear them with pride as a sign of their loyalty, devotion and dignity. Such medals should never be turned into currency. By allowing medals to be sold, we are turning honours into commodities.

I share the view of those members in this House who want to prohibit such sales. In doing so, I am not however underestimating the dire financial need that many veterans are experiencing today. I can fully appreciate that many veterans feel that they have to sell their medals as one of the last resorts for making ends meet.

My goodness, surely we can all agree that such circumstances are a national disgrace. It is a situation that reflects badly not on the veterans but on the successive Liberal and Conservative governments that say they support our troops but, in fact, provide little real support when they return home.

Just this past Good Friday, there was a story in the news from Calgary where I guess the Prime Minister thought he was staging a positive photo-op by helping out at a food bank. However, it was a veterans food bank. Over 40 veterans rely on that food bank on a regular basis. Here is what George Bittman, chair of the Calgary Poppy Fund said to the media about that food bank:

The facility is used by vets who feel too proud to ask for help from a civilian food bank. And with so many veterans without pensions, there is a great need for donations of food. Like most Second (World) War veterans and Korean War veterans, if their problems weren’t apparent at the time they were discharged, they were happy to get the hell out of the service and get on with life, just as I did when I got out of the navy. Forty years later, when something comes up that something goes sideways, it’s generally too late for them to make a claim with Veterans Affairs. Records are lost, memories fade.

At that point there are few options available to veterans, other than turning to food banks. It is an absolute disgrace.

Bill C-201 would have gone a long way to providing meaningful help to veterans by improving their pension. So would the implementation of the NDP veterans first motion, which was passed by this House as far back as 2006.

If that motion were acted on in a comprehensive way, there would not be a clawback of SISIP anymore, there would not be a so-called gold-digger clause in the Canadian Forces Superannuation Act, the VIP would have been extended to all widows of all veterans, the survivor pension amount would have been increased from 50% to 66%, and the deduction from the annuity of retired and disabled Canadian Forces members would have been eliminated.

That is how we really support our troops, not by allowing them to sell their medals but by providing them with a decent standard of living. For their service to our country, veterans deserve so much more than just rhetoric from this Parliament. They deserve a retirement with dignity and respect.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased today to speak to Bill C-473, An Act to protect insignia of military orders, decorations and medals of cultural significance for future generations.

I met with the members of the Hudson Legion last week. I am always moved when I speak with veterans. Each medal and decoration marks an event in their military career and the role they played in various theatres of operation. I met with a number of veterans when I worked on the issue of Canadians who had lost their citizenship. These people were commonly known as Lost Canadians. They also take a great interest in the transfer of the last veterans hospital. They talked to me about the situation many of them are in and how they live in poverty. It is very disturbing. I believe we must do much more for them.

The bill has to do with part of our heritage and is intended to protect medals that were presented to soldiers who brought honour to us. I would first like to thank the member for Perth—Wellington for introducing this bill. It is a first step, but I believe that he will agree that we can do much more for these veterans.

I am also surprised at the narrow definition given to “veterans”, because many members of allied forces fought alongside our veterans, as the department currently defines them. Even though these people have been in Canada for 40 or 50 years, they still do not have privileged access to Ste. Anne's Hospital. We still have a lot of work to do on this.

As its title indicates, Bill C-473 is designed to protect Canadian medals and insignia of military orders that are culturally significant to Canada. The cultural significance of a decoration is determined by the regulations in this case. To keep decorations in Canada, the bill we are debating today would place tighter restrictions on the transfer of insignia of military orders, decorations and medals. It would be against the law to transfer an insignia of cultural significance to a non-resident, that is to say, someone who is neither a permanent resident nor a citizen of Canada. I encourage the committee that, I hope, will study this bill to review certain passages pertaining to citizenship.

I do not know if the member for Perth—Wellington realizes it, but more veterans have lost their citizenship. The last surviving veteran of World War I, Mr. Babcock, was not a Canadian citizen and the Prime Minister had to hop on a plane to restore it. The citizenship aspect should be revisited to prevent creating further irritants for veterans. Therefore, I invite the committee to examine this point and to do some checking.

This bill contains provisions that would allow any person to transfer a decoration provided that they have first tried to sell it at its fair market value to the Canadian War Museum, the Canadian Museum of Civilization or the Department of Canadian Heritage, in other words the Government of Canada. If the government refuses to purchase it and provides written confirmation to this effect or has not accepted the offer within 120 days after receiving it, the person may then transfer the decoration to a non-resident. As I mentioned, a number of veterans did not regain their Canadian citizenship before dying. That was the case for Mr. Vallière, among others. We should empathize with this situation, especially for the family's sake.

Bill C-374 indicates that all these restrictive measures do not apply to the transfer of a decoration to a near relative, which means the father, mother, grandfather, grandmother, child, grandchild, brother or sister of the owner of an insignia. At this stage, I find it unacceptable that spouses are excluded from this bill. I believe that this oversight will be corrected by the committee.

For people who do comply with the provisions of the bill, specific paragraphs in the bill stipulate that if a Canadian transfers a decoration considered “cultural property” in violation of the provisions I just mentioned, that person is committing an offence punishable by a fine in an amount that does not exceed five times the market value of the insignia. I would like to know how the government will contact the owners of insignia and medals. Is there a list of these persons? I also wonder how veterans will be advised of the changes proposed in this bill.

In the past, we have had a difficult time reaching veterans, even for a law as important as the Citizenship Act. So this will be an important part of the implementation of this bill.

The Bloc Québécois is in favour of the principle of Bill C-473 and would like it to be examined in committee. That will give us an opportunity to hear from witnesses and examine various aspects of the bill in greater depth.

We are also in favour of the principle of the bill because it is intended to conserve and protect heritage artifacts. Such artifacts are part of the military history of any country that presents military insignia, orders, decorations and medals to men and women to thank them for their actions and for their participation in various military missions.

In bestowing these decorations, a country recognizes the sacrifices and achievements of those who have served the cause of peace and freedom throughout the world over the years. Everyone here knows that our military personnel work hard and overcome many challenges. Many sustain serious injury, and some die.

Without hesitation, they accept the most dangerous missions with humility, determination and courage. Collectively, we have an obligation to recognize and support these soldiers.

We believe that all governments can and must do what they can to preserve the cultures and histories of the peoples under their authority. Military history and recognition of the dedication of the men and women in uniform are important parts of the history of a people.

That said, I must point out that the bill introduced by the member aims to protect a cultural asset that is military in nature.

The Conservatives wish to prove their willingness to preserve military history. Although we support this praiseworthy initiative, the Bloc Québécois urges the Conservative government to take concrete action to support the entire cultural sector.

We support the bill to protect one form of military culture. However, we insist that this government invest more in the protection and promotion of the culture and history of Quebec.

I would like to close by pointing out that for many veterans, medals are very important and so is the history behind every one of them.

The fact that enacting such a bill might be difficult and might touch some nerves must not be taken lightly.

I would also like the government to do more to address the poverty that prevails in that community.