Afghanistan Committee on Dec. 2nd, 2009

[Linda Garwood-Filbert]

When I left that part of my mission, we were in the process of looking at getting the appropriate equipment.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Now, Ms. Swords, I'm not sure you can answer this or how much of it you can answer, but with respect to the International Committee of the Red Cross and their standard operating procedures, it would seem to me that if the ICRC had a serious concern about torture and that sort of thing, they would not have been passing those concerns to somebody at Mr. Colvin's level, but they would be passing those concerns at a much higher level, directly to the state, as it were. I don't know whether you can comment on their SOPs or not.

[Colleen Swords]

I can. The International Committee of the Red Cross has a very strong policy that if they have concerns, they pass them to the government that is detaining a person. So if they have concerns about the detainees that we have in the Kandahar Airfield until we transfer them, they would discuss those with Canada. If they have concerns about detainees after they've been transferred, they talk to the Afghanistan authorities. It's absolutely critical for them to keep that confidential; otherwise their access can be cut off. They get very concerned when governments suggest they are broadcasting too publicly a private dialogue they are having with a government that's detaining.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

I understand. If they had any concerns with Canada's actions, would they have injected those concerns at Mr. Colvin's level, or would they have injected them at a higher level?

[Colleen Swords]

I can say that we have regular meetings with senior officials from the International Committee of the Red Cross in Geneva and in Washington. I don't think it's right to comment on what they have to say, but I can refer you to what Dr. Kellenberger said back in 2006, because he could say it publicly.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you.

Now, Mr. Proudfoot, if you or your colleagues had any concerns regarding torture of transferred Afghans by the Canadian Forces, who would you have briefed on that? Who would you have reported that to?

[Douglas Scott Proudfoot]

We did not have information suggesting that Canadian-transferred detainees had been mistreated prior to April 2007. Thereafter, we did receive such allegations, and those were brought to the attention of senior officials and ministers.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Did anybody report to you any first-hand evidence of torture of somebody who was transferred by the Canadian Forces?

[Douglas Scott Proudfoot]

I saw the reports in April and some of the reports in June, which reported claims by Canadian-transferred detainees that they had been mistreated.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

You probably wouldn't have been in this area, but to your knowledge, were any of those claims substantiated?

[Douglas Scott Proudfoot]

I don't know whether they were substantiated.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you, Mr. Hawn.

Over to Mr. Wilfert.

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Mr. Chairman, I have just one question to Ms. Garwood-Filbert.

I'm trying to reconcile two statements. One you made before committee today said:

[D]uring the time I spent in Afghanistan, I was impressed with the work being done to ensure the rights and standards that are to be afforded to prisoners and detainees. I witnessed correctional personnel in the central prison department making a sincere effort to learn and develop and to adhere to international standards to the best of their ability.

I would like to quote you in a CTV interview that you did, which was reported in The Globe and Mail on April 27, 2007:

“There hasn't been any significant work done with the prisons”, Ms. Garwood-Filbert said at the time, adding that it is too easy for the Canadian and Afghan authorities to forget about prisoners after they're thrown in jail. “It's out of sight, out of mind. We're just happy they went to jail.” Allegations of torture at Afghan prisons wouldn't surprise her.

You said that to CTV News on that date.

This “out of sight, out of mind” policy seemed to remain in Ottawa until November 5, 2007. Those are my words.

Can you reconcile those two statements, the one you gave in April and the one you gave today?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Go ahead.

[Linda Garwood-Filbert]

Certainly. It's not unusual for any society to forget about an inmate while they're in prison. That's why our profession is called the forgotten keeper. Once they've gone through court, they tend to be forgotten until they're ready to be released again, and then it becomes a community concern. That's the point I was making.

That's not much different from the Afghan people. If someone has been convicted and put in prison, they're quite content to know they're in prison and that's the end of it.

With regard to some of my other statements—and I do have 28 years of experience—I would be personally naive, as a prison expert or adviser, to think that some of the complaints and allegations that come forward in our own Canadian prisons would not come forward in a country such as Afghanistan.

So that explains my statement.

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Again, I don't quite understand the difference—how you could say that rights and standards are afforded and at the same time say they are out of mind when they go to jail and there could be torture going on. I can't reconcile those two statements.

[Linda Garwood-Filbert]

I was making a reference to the Afghan society, not to the prison officials. The prison officials—

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Well, it says “Canadian and Afghan authorities” forget about prisoners after they're thrown in jail.

[Linda Garwood-Filbert]

Well, that's the quote, sir, but that wasn't my intent in what I was saying.

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Well, intent and what you said...I don't know.

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Can I have the floor?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

It's up to you.

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Yes, Mr. Rae can go.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Go ahead.

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

On page 5, you talk about this braided piece of electrical cable being found in the office of the director of investigations on a November 5 visit.