Evidence of meeting #38 for Canada-China Relations in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was policies.
A video is available from Parliament.
1:35 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Jeffrey, who did the two scientists, Dr. Qiu and Dr. Cheng, report to?
1:35 p.m.
President, Public Health Agency of Canada
I'm going to turn to my colleague Dr. Poliquin to confirm.
1:35 p.m.
Dr. Guillaume Poliquin Vice-President, National Microbiology Laboratory, Public Health Agency of Canada
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Dr. Qiu reported to Dr. Gary Kobinger, within special pathogens. Dr. Cheng reported to Dr. Grant McClarty, though he had different functions within the lab over his course of employment.
1:35 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Can you provide the titles of those two individuals?
1:35 p.m.
Vice-President, National Microbiology Laboratory, Public Health Agency of Canada
Dr. Kobinger was chief of special pathogens, and Dr. McClarty was the director of the science technology cores.
1:35 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Are they both employed at the lab with PHAC today?
1:35 p.m.
Vice-President, National Microbiology Laboratory, Public Health Agency of Canada
Both individuals have taken up other opportunities over the course of the past several years.
1:35 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Did the 10-week delay by the Prime Minister to appoint a new president of PHAC have an impact on securing the lab?
1:35 p.m.
President, Public Health Agency of Canada
I can say that we moved forward, Mr. Chair, as expediently as possible with the investigations. Initially, we had circumstances and then had allegations, but given their severity and impact, it was very important to have evidence. As soon as evidence was secured, we moved forward.
1:35 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
I asked you a specific question, respectfully. Did the gap, the 10-week period in which there was no one at the top of PHAC, have an impact on the ability to secure the lab, yes or no?
1:35 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Thank you for that.
Between the time that red flags were first raised about Dr. Qiu and Dr. Cheng in the fall of 2018 through to the time they were marched out of the lab on July 5, 2019, during that nearly 11-month window, were any restrictions placed upon them in terms of their access to the lab?
1:35 p.m.
President, Public Health Agency of Canada
I'm going to turn to my colleague. At the time, the circumstances were still under investigation. I would say that until the Canadian Security Intelligence Service was able to provide evidence that pointed to their willing collaboration, which was undeclared, which would have been in June 2020, there was not evidence of their affiliations with external actors.
1:40 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Ms. Jeffrey, respectfully, I know you weren't in charge at the time, but I find that astounding. In March 2019, PHAC had a fact-finding report that indicated there had been multiple breaches by Dr. Cheng and Dr. Qiu with respect to security and intellectual property, and that, indeed, they had been, on an unauthorized basis, collaborating with the PRC, including the People's Liberation Army.
How, at Canada's highest-security lab, a level 4 lab, would they have continued to have unfettered access with PHAC having that information?
1:40 p.m.
President, Public Health Agency of Canada
Mr. Chair, what I can say is that the evidence of their involvement in the talent programs and foreign associations and some of their travel was not presented to the Public Health Agency until June 30, 2020.
1:40 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
The fact-finding report was presented to PHAC on March 23, 2019, and that report contained all of the things that I just mentioned.
1:40 p.m.
President, Public Health Agency of Canada
It's very important, given the seriousness of the allegations, that we have evidence to back up the allegations—
1:40 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Ms. Jeffrey, it was a fact-finding report. What evidence was needed to say that perhaps it's not a good idea to give two scientists who were working with Beijing on an unauthorized basis, including with the PLA, access to a level 4 lab? I think common sense would indicate they should not have been there after that time.
1:40 p.m.
President, Public Health Agency of Canada
The administrative investigation that was concluded in the spring of 2019 specifically said that an administrative investigation needed to be launched in order to determine if the allegations that had been raised in the fact-finding were indeed founded. They were still allegations at that point in time, and in July 2019, both employees were placed on leave without pay as a result of that.
1:40 p.m.
Liberal
1:40 p.m.
Liberal
Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
Thank you, Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for coming on a Friday to speak with us.
Ms. Jeffrey, would there have been an instance in which PHAC would have table-dropped the documents without going through the appropriate vetting process?
1:40 p.m.
President, Public Health Agency of Canada
The information in these administrative investigations is clearly subject to the Privacy Act. It also includes highly sensitive national security information provided by the Canadian Security Intelligence Service. The need to ensure that these documents are disclosed in a protected setting underpinned the redactions that were initially made. There is no circumstance that I'm aware of in which these types of reports would be released unredacted, because of the acts that apply.
1:40 p.m.
Liberal
Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
Ms. Jeffrey, in your opening statement you spoke about a supportive culture. Could you elaborate on that?
1:40 p.m.
President, Public Health Agency of Canada
Collaboration is at the heart of scientific advancement, particularly in public health research and research into the consequences of these pathogens. We saw this, for example, in the Ebola outbreak in west Africa, in the SARS outbreak in Canada and, most recently, in COVID-19. These examples show that international collaboration is essential in order to advance quickly to keep pace with evolving and mutating viruses.
It's important, while safeguarding the security of these pathogens and toxins, as well as of our science, to be able to collaborate in a secure environment, so it is very important that our personnel understand and work within policies that allow them to collaborate where necessary, while respecting the need to protect their work from unauthorized use.
In this type of context, as you've seen in the security awareness and the recently launched research security policy writ large across the country, it's very important that our science personnel are able to collaborate, but that, at the same time, they are very aware of the need for review, approvals, permissions and appropriate boundaries on that collaboration.
April 19th, 2024 / 1:45 p.m.
Liberal
Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
Does that supportive culture extend to Chinese Canadian scientists? Since the incident at the Winnipeg lab, the sensitive research guidelines, as you've mentioned, have been introduced, resulting in a list of research organizations that are believed to pose a high risk to national security. Most of the organizations named on the list are Chinese. This has hindered funding applications and career advancement for some Chinese Canadian scientists, based not necessarily on any association with organizations on the list but solely on their Chinese surnames. What assurances can you provide to these scientists?
