Evidence of meeting #44 for Canadian Heritage in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was programming.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Robert Rabinovitch  President and Chief Executive Officer and Acting Chair of the Board of Directors, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation
Sylvain Lafrance  Executive Vice-President, French Services, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation
Richard Stursberg  Executive Vice-President, Television (English), Canadian Broadcasting Corporation
Jennifer McGuire  Acting Vice-President, English Radio, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation

10:25 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer and Acting Chair of the Board of Directors, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation

Robert Rabinovitch

I think, Mr. Angus, you're absolutely right. There is a long tail now for both the monetization and the viewing.

People are not going to necessarily watch things when we tell them to watch; they're not necessarily going to watch it the way we tell them to watch it. There has to be an adjustment in the financial model and in the purchase model. I think that is one of the key issues before the Canadian Television Fund, which has provoked the discussions we're now having, and that is how to move forward.

From the point of view of the independent producers, there's fear they are going to be taken to the cleaners. That's why we thought we were being fair in saying look, we'll act as your distributor, but it will be a fifty-fifty deal.

Something will have to be worked out. Because you're absolutely right, without that we're going to be depriving a lot of Canadians of Canadian content.

10:25 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

It seems to me that on the issue of cultural sovereignty—and that's what we've been speaking about, that democratic voice, digitally, in a cultural space—there are two choices: we can either invest in the digital realm or we can try to impose laws to insist that people watch a certain percentage. If we look at Iran or China or Syria or any other country that has attempted this, I think it doesn't work. We have to get serious about whether we're going to take our cultural product and get it out there so people can watch it.

The question we have to ask is whether you are suggesting that changes are needed at the Canadian Television Fund so that if we put money into television programming we can insist that those programs will be shown on various platforms after the initial viewing.

10:25 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer and Acting Chair of the Board of Directors, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation

Robert Rabinovitch

I think this is one of the major issues that the CRTC task force will have to confront. We will definitely talk to them. When we meet, we will talk to them in terms of the long tail for rights and how we come to an accommodation that makes some sense.

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

Thank you.

I have one thing for the members who are asking questions. When you're getting near the end of the five or six minutes, maybe you could look towards the chairman when I'm trying to get your attention.

10:25 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Mr. Chair, we never look near the chair when we're getting near the end of the five minutes. We just keep going until the hook comes.

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

I know the trick.

Thank you.

Mr. Scott.

10:25 a.m.

Liberal

Andy Scott Liberal Fredericton, NB

To that point, Mr. Chair, I was here seven years before I realized there was a chair.

I have three points I'd like to make. First of all, in the context of the CRTC review and your representations to the CRTC, I know that in a submission in 2006 there was a reference to the fact that in terms of investment we had to look at forward-looking investments, rather than panicking with the declining over-the-air numbers and making choices.

I need you to elaborate on that. Where are our priorities here? I think it's critically important to understand the relationship between the traditional world that I engaged television with and the world that my one-year-old son is going to walk into. Where do you fit? You need to elaborate, because a lot of people are scared of that comment, as you can well imagine.

Second, in terms of the mandate itself, I think there's a great deal here that speaks to the regions, that speaks to our diversity, that speaks to language, to the north, and so on. Given all the inputs available, would it be advisable to deal with a chronological piece of the mandate?

In other words, with all the offerings available, the other elements of this mandate to affect the minds of Canadians and to affect the impression of Canadians of their own country and so on are clearly there, but if nobody is accessing it, it's hard to do that. Maybe a mandate has to see you involved in schools, see you involved in a different way, so that people have exposure. I'm only 52; there were only two television stations for most of my formative years, so this piece worked well then. Now it's very different, and maybe there have to be more creative ways to be there for people, to engage them in the public broadcaster and so on. I'd be interested in that.

The other one is there's a large elephant in the room having to do with funding. As a member of previous governments that took decisions that negatively affected the resources available to the CBC, I think we must all try to get past it from a political context so that we can actually do the right thing by the public broadcaster. I appeal to all members to allow that, so that we don't get into silly debate about it. I know it may be self-serving, but there are both sides to all debates. I think it would be a waste of time for us to get too engaged in that. We should simply deal with what it is we wish to see from the CBC and how it may wish to reposition itself in some ways to deal with new realities, and I go back to what I said.

I would also really like you to clarify or elaborate on the earlier representation to the CRTC on where the various media fit.

10:30 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer and Acting Chair of the Board of Directors, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation

Robert Rabinovitch

That's one way to get all your questions into one shot.

10:30 a.m.

Liberal

Andy Scott Liberal Fredericton, NB

It is. That was my second seven years.

10:30 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer and Acting Chair of the Board of Directors, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation

Robert Rabinovitch

With respect to over-the-air, when we talked to the CRTC we were very cognizant of the fact that we have 650 transmitting towers for television alone, plus radio as a separate item, and that these towers are aging. They were built mainly in the 1970s, and they were built to serve all communities of 500 or more. It was a government policy called the accelerated coverage plan. We knew that this was a system that was perhaps designed for a different era, an era when the bulk of people got their television over the air.

The fact is that now, basically 90% of Canadians, give or take a couple of percentage points and depending on who's doing the calculation on any one day, choose to pay to get their television via satellite or via cable, primarily, and very shortly we'll have more delivery by the telephone companies. In the process a very unique thing has happened. The regions that were les régions défavorisées, the regions that were underserved in terms of television and maybe only had one channel, are now the ones that are getting the multitude of channels via ExpressVu or Star Choice. Where people choose still to get their television off air, the bulk of them are in urban communities. They are in urban communities and it's a conscious decision, or a financial decision, on their part—conscious because maybe they don't watch TV, maybe because getting over-the-air CBC and CTV is more than enough for them because of the amount they watch, maybe just news. But it's generally speaking a conscious decision to get their television over the air.

We had no suggestion from government, nor were we certain it was the correct policy, that all those 650 transmitters be replaced. It's a very expensive undertaking. With 42 transmitters, as we move to the digital era and move to HD, we can cover 80% of the population over the air, and the bulk of the people who have chosen not to take television by cable or satellite. So we're not depriving people by saying this is a rational business model. If the government wants us to go all the way, we're more than willing to do it.

If I were to be asked for advice, wearing my old bureaucrat's hat as a policy advisor, I would suggest that perhaps there are better ways to spend the money in broadcasting than to replicate an old system and again get tied up in transmission rather than in program production.

So when we went to the CRTC we went with what we thought was a responsible way to deliver HD over the air to 80% of the population. I must say, TQS said they were going to build one transmitter for HD, at most. In many ways, others are very concerned about the cost of that. So that was the essence of our presentation, trying to be reasonable and rational, given the economic situation within which we live, and given that our priority still is, and still will be, programming.

That gets me to the second part of your question, about how we reach out and educate people about the availability of CBC. In many ways that's exactly what the new technologies allow us to do. I jokingly say that sometimes CBC radio, in particular, is an acquired taste. If you're under 50, you're not going to acquire it. You'll acquire it with time. The fact is I'm wrong. I know it from my own kids and their friends. There are a lot of younger people who like and are attracted to CBC radio, and we're proving now with iPods and downloads that there are many ways to get to people, in English and in French, through the new technologies. I think that's what we have to do. We must be involved in all the new technologies. Some are going to fail, no question. Some are going to be overtaken by other technologies. But we must respond to Canadians and say you can get that program when you want to see it, not when I tell you to see it. I think in that way we will continue to build an audience for CBC in the long run.

If we're not in those technologies, we will lose. If somebody wants to watch an Olympic result on their little cell screen and they want it immediately, we have to be there. We were there in the last Olympics, and both the cellular provider and us were ecstatic at the number of new people who actually tuned in just to see the event, and then moved on or then saw it on a big screen.

What you say in terms of funding is the dream I have that we could, with all of you, define what you want from the public broadcaster, what the holes are in the Canadian system. I believe, for example, drama is a tremendous hole. Service to les communautés francophones hors Québec is an extremely important service that we must do, if we believe in how this country is going. But that is something to be defined beyond just the Broadcasting Act and to be defined in a regular manner, I say every ten years. That means that at the seventh year, you begin to evaluate us and go forward.

But a contract has two parts to it. Part one is what is expected, part two is how it's going to be paid for. The two must merge together. The only way I can see this happening in the long run is for all of us to do it together.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

Thank you very much.

Mr. Brown.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

Gord Brown Conservative Leeds—Grenville, ON

It's good to see our witnesses back. I was on the committee in the 38th Parliament that reviewed the feature film industry.

10:35 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

It's good to have you back.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

Gord Brown Conservative Leeds—Grenville, ON

Yes, I recently just joined the heritage committee again.

So back then, when we had you in front of the committee, or a few of you anyway, we were talking about how we would go forward, and there was some suggestion at that time that there should be a study of the role of the public broadcaster in the 21st century. So I'm happy that I'm arriving when this study is under way. But at that time, we used to talk a lot about some of the unique Canadian stories that were undertaken by the CBC, things like the Avro Arrow, and some of these other documentaries, these unique Canadian stories, Like H2O.

Is there work going on right now for more of those? I have a number of questions, so maybe I'll start with that.

10:40 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer and Acting Chair of the Board of Directors, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation

Robert Rabinovitch

Richard, Sylvain.

10:40 a.m.

Executive Vice-President, Television (English), Canadian Broadcasting Corporation

Richard Stursberg

The short answer is yes. Our overwhelming focus is on making television programming that is distinctively Canadian and that is smart and popular.

Just this year alone, we broadcast a docudrama on the life of René Lévesque. We did a docudrama, to some controversy, on Tommy Douglas. We did a docudrama on the War Measures Act and the events of October 1970.

But we think that there is a whole series of other ways of exploring the nature of the country. Certainly the one I'm most fond of is Little Mosque on the Prairie. Little Mosque on the Prairie gave us an opportunity to explore relationships between the Muslim community and the community more broadly, but to do so in a way in which we put aside stereotypes, in which we put aside a whole series of vilifications that have been going on over the course of the last little while. And we had an opportunity to make a comedy in which people encountered each other in their full differences, but completely as human beings.

What was so fantastic about this particular program was that the response of Canadians was overwhelming. This clearly became not only the most talked about but the most popular new show, I dare say, in the last five years. In fact, it became a sort of small ambassador for the country throughout the rest of the world. CNN sent Paula Zahn up to talk about it. It was on the front page of the entertainment section of The New York Times. It was covered extensively in France and in Britain as to what it was. Many people's feeling was that not only was this an interesting thing because it was a uniquely Canadian way of exploring these kinds of issues, but it was something that many other people would have found absolutely impossible to approach.

So it's not just to do things that are docudramas about historical events but to engage in terms of the current social issues that confront us, and to do so in a way that's popular, that's smart, and that's entertaining.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Gord Brown Conservative Leeds—Grenville, ON

Well, we know about the announcement from Minister Oda of the $60 million, and we heard a bit about what you were going to do with $10 million of that money. What might Canadians expect from this increased investment in the public broadcaster?

10:40 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer and Acting Chair of the Board of Directors, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation

Robert Rabinovitch

One of the things one must remember is that it takes a couple of years from idea to the actual creation of the program. But in the past, with the approval of my board, we have given some money to radio, and we have seen in particular radio using it for very creative programming and new programming, so the number of repeats has gone down quite significantly as we try new programs. We also try what we call “cross-cultural” programs, doing a jazz festival from Montreal in English and in French at the same time, which is what we did about two weeks ago.

That $60 million is all in programming, and it goes to programs of that nature. It makes possible a program like Little Mosque on the Prairie. It will make possible the second season of that program.

What we do is basically split the money between the networks, and more or less on a 60-40 basis, in order to fund the creation of new programs and continue.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Gord Brown Conservative Leeds—Grenville, ON

Okay. Maybe we can blue-sky a bit. What do you think the optimum level of annual funding would be, and what could Canadians expect if you got that optimum level of funding?

10:40 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer and Acting Chair of the Board of Directors, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation

Robert Rabinovitch

I'm not going to duck, but I'm not going to give you an answer.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Gord Brown Conservative Leeds—Grenville, ON

I've asked you this before.

10:40 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer and Acting Chair of the Board of Directors, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation

Robert Rabinovitch

I think the reality is that it depends on the priorities that you, as parliamentarians, ask us to do. If you want us to expand our regional services, we have tabled a report with the government that says it would take a minimum of about $120 million. If you want us to cover the 25% of the Canadian population who don't get a local radio service, that will cost about $20 million to $25 million. If you want us to accelerate getting into HD, now that can cost up to $100 million.

My own feeling is that programming is what it's really all about. Remember, it's $60 million now. I'm not knocking the $60 million, believe me, but it's $60 million. It has been the same $60 million for the last six years, and it will be the same for two more years, including the coming one. The cost of programming keeps going up. I bet it would take a minimum of $150 million, devoted solely to programming, to be well positioned to do the programming part of our job.

So again, sir, it comes down to your priorities. Let's talk about them.

10:45 a.m.

Conservative

Gord Brown Conservative Leeds—Grenville, ON

Okay, thank you.

I've looked at the chair and he's giving me the axe.

10:45 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer and Acting Chair of the Board of Directors, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation

10:45 a.m.

Conservative

Gord Brown Conservative Leeds—Grenville, ON

Thank you very much.