Evidence of meeting #57 for Canadian Heritage in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cbc.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sheila Fraser  Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Richard Flageole  Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Julie Charron  Principal, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Chad Mariage  Procedural Clerk

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

Good morning, everyone. I'd like to welcome everyone here today to this 57th meeting of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we are undertaking a full investigation of the role of a public broadcaster in the 21st century, examining a special report of the Auditor General of Canada presented to the board of directors of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation on November 30, 2005.

Before we ask Ms. Fraser to start, I would like to bring to the attention of the committee that as the consideration of the main estimates has been referred to the committee of the whole under Standing Order 81(4)(a), we will be removing it from our agenda. Therefore, the minister will not be at our committee May 15. I would just like to let you know that. So the minister will not be here on May 15, because we will be debating it in the House in a committee of the whole. Thank you for that.

I welcome this morning, from the Office of the Auditor General of Canada, Auditor General Ms. Fraser, as well as Mr. Flageole and Ms. Charron. Welcome.

Would you please go forward?

9:05 a.m.

Sheila Fraser Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We thank you for this opportunity to discuss the results of our last special examination of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, CBC.

The examination was carried out between April 2004 and April 2005, and we presented our report to the board of directors on November 29, 2005. The report was subsequently made public by the corporation on December 7, 2005.

As you mentioned, I am accompanied today by Richard Flageole, Assistant Auditor General, and Julie Charron, principal, who were responsible for this examination.

I would like to begin by explaining that special examinations are a key component of the control and accountability framework for federal crown corporations. Our mandate for such examinations is outlined in legislation and consists of expressing an opinion on whether the corporation has systems and practices in place to provide reasonable assurance that its assets are safeguarded and controlled, that its financial, human, and physical resources are managed economically and efficiently, and that its operations are carried out effectively. A special examination must be conducted at least once every five years, and the results are provided to the board of directors.

Since your committee is currently conducting a full investigation of the role of a public broadcaster in the 21st century, it is important to note that we do not comment on the appropriateness of the CBC's mandate in our examination. In fact, the legislation expressly prohibits us from expressing any opinion on the merits of the mandate given to the CBC by Parliament.

However, we did examine how the CBC measures its performance and reports the results achieved under its current mandate. We found that in order to demonstrate its level of efficiency and the extent to which it is meeting its corporate objectives, the CBC had to develop and implement a corporate-wide performance management framework; provide better costing information for programming and activities; and make improvements in internal and external reporting practices.

Weaknesses in these areas led us to conclude that the systems and practices we examined had a significant deficiency in terms of the CBC's internal and external accountability.

Specifically, we found that although the CBC had developed a certain number of performance indicators that included both quantitative and qualitative indicators to reflect its role as a public broadcaster, these indicators were incomplete. These indicators addressed primarily programming and not the other five strategic areas and priorities identified in the CBC's corporate plan—efficiency, creative human resources, strategic partnerships, collaboration, and strong stakeholders relationships. Moreover, we noted that the development and use of targets to set performance expectations varied among the media lines and other corporate functions; some had clear and measurable targets, while others did not. The lack of such targets makes it difficult to assess how well the corporation is fulfilling its mandate.

In addition, we noted that senior managers did not have relevant costing information for programming and activities to assess the efficiency of CBC's operations. More specifically, management reports did not break down the costs of activities by major categories, such as staff costs, operating costs, and facilities costs. Having these would allow for comparisons over time as well as with similar activities within the corporation and with those of external organizations. Further, the format and contents of the reports were not consistent within and between media lines and other components. As a result, it is difficult, and in some cases not feasible, to compare performance and costs between networks.

We also found a number of weaknesses in external reporting practices, including a lack of performance measures and targets in the corporate plan, inconsistencies between the performance indicators presented in the annual report and those developed internally, and a lack of alignment between the financial information in the corporate plan and that in the annual report.

Other than annual expenses for media and other corporate functions, the financial information provided in the annual report does not demonstrate the resources targeted and used to achieve the corporation's objectives. In our view, significant improvements in external reporting practices, including reporting to Parliament, are needed to meet public accountability expectations of a corporation with the size and importance of the CBC.

Finally, Mr. Chair, I would like to note that we did note many areas of strength in the corporation's systems and practices, as well as other opportunities for improvement, and these are described in more detail in our report.

Mr. Chair, we discussed all these observations with senior management and the board when we presented our report in 2005. They agreed with our observations and assured us that our recommendations would be acted on. We understand that the CBC has undertaken several initiatives to address our recommendations, but we have not conducted any follow-up work on these initiatives and cannot comment on their effectiveness. The committee may wish to ask the CBC about the actions taken and the progress made in this regard.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. We would be pleased to answer any questions the committee might have.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

Thank you for that presentation.

The first question will be from Ms. Keeper.

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

Tina Keeper Liberal Churchill, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank you for your presentation.

One of the notes that you had really struck me, because we are currently doing a CBC mandate review. We've heard from witnesses over several weeks now that there has been a significant change to CBC over the last decade, primarily in terms of its budget, but also in trying to meet the challenges of audience fragmentation.

You talked about the management reports. What really struck me was that if the targets are not clear and measurable for these categories, how is the CBC to meet these challenges, especially in a particularly challenging time? Could you elaborate on what you found in those categories in terms of clear and measurable targets and on senior management's having some costing information? Could you elaborate on that point?

9:10 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

Yes, thank you. I'd like to start by saying that performance measurement is a challenge in any corporation. We recognize that it's not easy to do. The corporation does have targets for programming. It was in the other corporate objectives that the measures weren't as well defined and weren't consistently defined in all of the areas. As well, we also noted that the internal financial management information was not good--certainly not as robust as we would have expected.

Perhaps I'll ask Mr. Flageole if he could elaborate.

9:10 a.m.

Richard Flageole Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Mr. Chair, as the Auditor General mentioned, the CBC has six strategic priorities in their corporate plan. In the annual report, we found that they reported pretty well on the programming aspect, but if we look at the other five aspects, we didn't see any performance indicators, and there's a lack of results information. I really believe they have to improve this. We have been informed that they're working on this. If we look at the latest annual report, for 2005-2006, they explicitly mention in the report that they are developing what they call a performance dashboard that will be implemented over the next three years. So I guess we should expect to see better information on the achievement of those results in the future.

In terms of cost, I think one of the key things is that it was extremely difficult for us to make comparisons between the two networks, because there are significant differences in the way costs are accumulated. We would have liked to compare French and English for a number of activities, but the costing system they have now doesn't allow for such comparisons.

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

Tina Keeper Liberal Churchill, MB

I'm a little confused by that. Could you just explain it to me? Maybe I'm the only one at this table who wouldn't understand this, but I don't understand why there's a difficulty in cost comparison between the two.

9:10 a.m.

Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Richard Flageole

If we look at the key components of the cost of the CBC, which are staff, operations, and facilities, in cost accounting there are different ways to accumulate those costs. You might include certain elements in staffing or in facilities or something else. So there's not only one way of doing this, and the way it's done on both networks is different.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Tina Keeper Liberal Churchill, MB

It's completely different.

9:15 a.m.

Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Richard Flageole

It's different. In some cases we would be comparing apples and oranges. So it's really key for CBC to look at the way they are doing that costing, what's included in what, and make sure they have more harmonization between the two networks.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Tina Keeper Liberal Churchill, MB

Thank you.

Can I ask one quick question, which is on a similar thing, between the two networks? One of the things you found in your examination was unused programming in both networks, and this had to do with the management of program rights, as I understand. Could you talk a little bit about that and whether you had access to information that you could compare between the two networks?

Thank you.

9:15 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

We did have the information for the two networks. The inventory of times that have not been aired was around 6,000 hours for each network. We were reporting that the corporation needed to better manage that. Since then, I think in the English network they have named a director to manage this position. But there was no centralized management of this.

We are not commenting on whether the number of hours is too much or inappropriate; it's simply that there needs to be much better management. These are assets that have been paid for. We would expect the CBC itself to know if these programs would be aired eventually or not. And we note, as well, in the report that the private broadcasters will tend to air what they have bought, whereas the CBC does not always do that, and that's why there's this inventory. So it's really a question of managing that asset.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Tina Keeper Liberal Churchill, MB

Thank you.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

Thank you.

Mr. Kotto.

9:15 a.m.

Bloc

Maka Kotto Bloc Saint-Lambert, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning. I would like to thank you for joining us today to share your wisdom, which we may draw on in making our recommendations.

I would like to return to the issue of performance indicators. Do you believe that the current indicators are suitable for measuring performance?

9:15 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

Yes. What we primarily found is that the indicators were incomplete. There were indicators for programming. It is up to the CBC to determine the indicators, because it must manage according to these indicators. Indicators should not be established just to produce an annual report. They must be part of management. We did not necessarily have comments on the existing indicators, except that there were no indicators or targets for the corporation's other strategic objectives. The indicators were incomplete.

9:15 a.m.

Bloc

Maka Kotto Bloc Saint-Lambert, QC

What expertise would be essential in eventually completing the indicators? Who could potentially contribute, besides the people from the corporation themselves?

9:15 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

In general, this is something managed by the corporation itself. It may sometimes call on other people, particularly when making comparisons with industries or similar companies. The indicators must really come from the CBC, because it is the one that must manage according to those indicators. They must be part of its management. They must be followed consistently.

9:15 a.m.

Bloc

Maka Kotto Bloc Saint-Lambert, QC

Okay.

As we know, using public money efficiently, effectively and transparently is the cornerstore of the essential trust between the government and the public broadcaster. How do you think this efficiency, effectiveness and transparency can be measured accurately? Transparency in particular. It has often been called into question with respect to the corporation and its accountability. Is this true more of the corporation's English-language or French-language services? Where specifically did you find this lack of transparency?

9:15 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

We found that there was a weakness in all the reports the CBC was producing, in particular the reports to Parliament, which we felt did not contain enough information. This is partly related to the performance indicators. Efficiency cannot be measured without good performance indicators and targets that have been monitored over a period of time.

Also, comparing the two networks would have been useful, but as was explained earlier, the fact that accounting and financial information is calculated differently makes comparisons impossible for the time being.

Mr. Flageole could perhaps speak more about transparency.

9:20 a.m.

Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Richard Flageole

Mr. Chair, I think that we are harking back to the discussion we had earlier. It is a matter of performance indicators. I think that it is extremely important for— If we look at the CBC's reports, there is a lot of information on results. I think that it is important to state expectations much more clearly. What is expected? What are the current results? The differences between what is expected and what is actually happening should be explained.

As for efficiency, it brings us back to the issue of information. We did a lot of work during this examination. If you are asking us whether the CBC's operations are efficient, the answer is that we were not able to come to a conclusion because the information we needed to make such a judgment was not available.

9:20 a.m.

Bloc

Maka Kotto Bloc Saint-Lambert, QC

Okay. One of your recommendations for improvement—I am saying it for our analysts—would be to improve these parameters.

When they testified before the committee, some people suggested that the employees should be represented on the corporation's board of directors.

What do you think?

9:20 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

Best practices in governance indicate that the members of a board of directors should be independent from a company. There are some examples of crown corporations where the employees are represented on the board, but these are mainly associations in which the employer, the clients and the employees are represented. There are very few. I think that they are pilotage corporations, for example. It is not a model for a large crown corporation. According to current practices, employees are not represented on boards.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

Mr. Angus.

9:20 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Chair, thank you very much.

I'd like to follow up on my colleague's question about the governance framework at the CBC, because questions have been raised about the existing system being deficient. The CEO has also been the chair of the board a number of times recently. We take our board and CEO from patronage appointments, as opposed to a head-hunting process. We've heard other examples of governance--for example, the BBC and some of the other public broadcasters. Have you examined how the governance structure for choosing the CEO and the board of directors at the CBC compares with that of other public broadcasters?