Canadian Heritage Committee on June 15th, 2006

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you, Mr. Bélanger.

Could we deal with Mr. Warkentin's motion? Do you want to deal with it today or at the beginning of the next meeting?

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Do we have time right now?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

We have time today. Let's work on it right now.

It's a motion by Chris Warkentin. It reads:

WHEREAS museums small and large across Canada are the epicentre of institutional memory--

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Let's dispense. We already all have copies.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

You made sure that I got to “epicentre”, though, first.

Any comments on the motion?

Yes, Mr. Simms.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Rather than dispense with this so quickly, I would like to read it in a slightly different way, as to how I see it. I hope my honourable colleagues representing this area will not be offended by this. “Whereas museums across Canada deserve adequate resources”—true—“whereas a significant amount of citizens visit rural, local, national...institutions every year; therefore, considering the number of museums”, and so on.

Let me read it to you this way, starting with the “furtherfore”. What I'm going to do is substitute the institution itself for its location: “furtherfore, that this committee undertakes visits to local museums such as” Ottawa, Ottawa Valley, Ottawa, Ottawa, Ottawa, Ottawa, Osgoode, Nepean, Stittsville, Ottawa, Ottawa, Ottawa, Ottawa, Ottawa.

The point is that certainly there are museums outside of the national capital region that would require a visit from us. Again I mean no offence to the people who administer the museums in this area, but I certainly would like to visit say the mining museum in Charlie's riding. I think the ruins in eastern Newfoundland are a good place. I think you get the idea.

That is my only comment.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Don't forget the west coast

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Indeed, I would not forget the west coast by any stretch. I'm sure that Vancouver Island has many.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Mr. Bélanger.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Mr. Chairman, I feel a bit awkward with this motion because I certainly would encourage its spirit. I had hoped that there might be a listing in Banff and perhaps we could go there, but I don't see it.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

But joking aside, Mr. Chairman, I extend an invitation to all my colleagues over the summer. I'm quite prepared to entertain you at home any time. I'll have a barbecue, and we can go together to visit any of these, because I've visited most of them already and would encourage all my colleagues to do so.

But I have to agree with Mr. Simms. If as a committee we are going to undertake a serious look at these things, it can't only be at locations in the nation's capital. It has to go beyond this.

At this stage, I think we should not adopt this motion, but put it aside. Part of our discussion on Tuesday, in terms of the work schedule we wish to consider for the fall, should perhaps address this issue. I can't support it as it is.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Is there anyone else?

Mr. Warkentin.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

I hear the sentiments. Our hope was that we'd get some type of contrast between local and national museums to see how differently they're run. But I certainly take what's been said with no offence.

Certainly across the country museums are run completely differently from one end to the other. I would have no problem if we were to cross out the “furtherfore” in order to move this forward. Then if we wanted to move a motion at some later date, talking about different locations we could visit across the country, I would have no problem with that.

I'm most concerned that we have an opportunity to discuss museums and invite the Canadian Museums Association. I know that many of my colleagues have met with the folks from the association, who have some important issues they want to talk to us about sooner than later.

So if it would please our committee, I would certainly have no problem crossing out the more regional museums from this and talk more about the national museums. I would also like to have the opportunity to bring in the Canadian Museum Association.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Mr. Kotto.

[Maka Kotto, Bloc, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would propose an enormous amendment to what I have before me. First, however, I'd like to recall that, in October 2005, the Canadian Museum Association was very enthusiastic about the sustained efforts made in this area by the former heritage minister Ms. Frulla. A museums policy was in the offing.

I believe studies are gathering dust on shelves. That leads me to keep only the last part of this motion. In other words, the committee should hear from the Canadian Museum Association, the Canadian Heritage officials who are concerned by this matter and any other interested party, at the committee's discretion.

It would be a waste of time to do tours that, in any case, wouldn't enable us, in so little time, to redo all the work previously done. We can rely on the experts, that is the technicians and officials who worked with Ms. Frulla on this file.

The compromise appears in the last line, if we add the words "the Canadian Heritage officials who are concerned by this file".

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Yes, Mr. Abbott.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

I understand completely what Mr. Simms is saying. I think that my friend Chris was attempting to give the contrast between the very large museums and the small museums. I take the good humour that was intended in the way it was presented. Perhaps deleting that particular paragraph would be helpful.

I think you've heard me say this before. Having had the privilege of enjoying the capacity of parliamentary secretary to the minister, I've had the opportunity to visit the archives, or at least one of the buildings of the archives, the Museum of Civilization, and the Museum of Science and Technology. On my own time, I have visited the Aviation Museum. But as a parliamentarian, I think it would be of value to go there with a parliamentarian's eyes, with the help of the people who are responsible for that. I visited the Museum of Nature, which, as I think I related, is under construction. I think they are spending about $85 million. I've been to the art gallery.

I guess what I'm saying is that my friend Mauril, being local of course, has the opportunity to visit these places and probably takes a lot of the visitors who would come to visit him and his wife, and I really respect that. But I suggest that if we're looking at it as committee members through committee eyes.... In other words, maybe what this motion might be lacking--and maybe we can get to it on Tuesday if we do a little sketching between now and Tuesday--is some ideas of how best this committee can become aware of the kinds of concerns the Auditor General is talking about and some of the challenges they face.

For example, if you go to the Museum of Science and Technology.... Here's a question for you. When you go to one of their five warehouses, there is a room that is as tall as this Railway Committee Room. And on the very top bunk are bicycles, scads and scads of bicycles all lying on top of each other. As you work your way down to the bottom, you come to the locomotives. Obviously, you wouldn't put the locomotives up there and the bicycles down below. Ask yourselves the question: Does it really make sense, in a museum of science and technology, to have that number of bicycles when if you were to do a display for science and technology about bicycles, you would fit it into something the size of a large lunch room?

Imagine dealing with a question like that--and there are about a thousand questions that can be asked like that--to become knowledgeable of some of the challenges with respect to the archiving.

So I'm simply saying we should be going to and taking a look at and becoming knowledgeable about museums. Then the second part, the Canadian Museums Association, getting more input from them--which is another dimension of museums--is something that I think this committee probably has some responsibility to take a look at. I can say that it's been very informative for me.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Mr. Simms.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

I fully appreciate the context of what you're saying. If I may add a suggestion, the context in which you explain is a context I've never seen. So obviously I'd have a greater appreciation for that. But the way it's worded makes it seem like this an in-depth study of what is rural and what is regional and what the difficulties are with many of the smaller museums. If you wish, for the sake of time--and I am very interested in hearing the Canadian Museums Association about this, but at the same time I understand what you're saying about context--choose one of the national museums to go to, to illustrate a point. Choose one of the smaller ones--say the Osgoode Township Historical Society and Museum--have a round-table discussion there with people in the industry across this country, if that's the context you are looking for.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

That's a valuable suggestion, with the exception that the challenges that are faced by the Museum of Science and Technology are so significantly different from the challenges that are faced by the Museum of Nature, the art gallery, or the archives. So it's not possible. Each one of them has challenges of varying sizes; each one of them has challenges, and some of them have absolutely catastrophic challenges.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

I see your point very clearly. On the national museum front, it's a very valid point. On the rural aspect or the regional aspect, however, I don't see the point of going to all of them, despite their special little nuances.

That would certainly be my suggestion, for the sake of time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Mr. Kotto.