Evidence of meeting #37 for Canadian Heritage in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was negotiations.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Steve Verheul  Chief Trade Negotiator, Canada-European Union, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Robert Ready  Director General, Intellectual Property and Services Trade Policy Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Edith St-Hilaire  Director, Intellectual Property Trade Policy Division, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Michael Chong

Welcome to the 37th meeting of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage on this 31st of January, 2011.

We are here today, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), for a study on the Canada-European Union comprehensive economic trade agreement, the anti-counterfeiting trade agreement, and issues regarding cultural diversity.

On our first panel we have the Honourable Peter Van Loan, Minister of International Trade, and Mr. Verheul, chief trade negotiator on the Canada-European Union talks. Welcome to you both.

We'll begin with an opening statement.

3:35 p.m.

York—Simcoe Ontario

Conservative

Peter Van Loan ConservativeMinister of International Trade

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I appreciate the opportunity to provide an update on Canada's negotiations with the European Union toward a comprehensive economic and trade agreement, as the Europeans like to call it, or a free trade agreement with the European Union, as I prefer to call it.

I am joined by our chief negotiator for these Canada-EU negotiations, Steve Verheul.

I'll also speak to culture-related issues within the context of the negotiations.

These negotiations are, without a doubt, the single most significant trade initiative Canada has undertaken since the Canada-U.S. Free Trade Agreement, both in scope and level of ambition. They are at the heart of our government's ambitious trade strategy, a strategy that is creating jobs and prosperity for Canadians.

Over the last five years, we've concluded new free trade agreements with eight countries: Colombia, Peru, Panama, Jordan; and the four countries part of the European Free Trade Agreement: Norway, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, and Iceland. And we are in negotiation with almost fifty more.

Our negotiations with the 27-member European Union are a critical part of these efforts. Free trade agreements are a tremendous opportunity for Canada and a critical part of our focus on the economy and on job creation.

An agreement with the European Union would boost Canada's gross domestic product by $12 billion annually.

It would increase our two-way trade by 20% on an annual basis. These figures are based on a study that was done jointly in advance of the negotiations to determine whether it made sense to proceed with the free trade discussions.

An agreement would give Canada a significant competitive edge over other trading countries. Canada is the first ever developed economy with whom the European Union has sought to negotiate a free trade agreement. Canada would ultimately thus be in a position, should we achieve an agreement, of being the only developed economy in the world with free trade agreements with both the European Union and the United States, the world's two largest economies. That would make Canada a tremendous destination for investment, a tremendous platform from which to do business.

As Canada's economy continues recovering, we need these kinds of benefits. Europeans are excited about these talks, too.

I made a number of visits to Europe over the past year to help build support for the negotiations, and our partners see the many benefits of doing more business with and in Canada. Canada's reputation is very positive, and we're seen as a very good partner. People are increasingly noticing the strength of Canada's economy compared with many other economies at this particular time. So those partners are attracted by our economic stability as well as the quality of our workforce, the most skilled workforce in the world, with the highest proportion of post-secondary graduates of any Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development country, as well as the strength of our job-creating businesses.

We are proud of our progress so far. Both Canada and the European Union have agreed to a demanding schedule of negotiations. In fact, the sixth round of negotiations took place earlier this month in Brussels and further meetings will take place over the coming months.

So far we have seen very significant progress in areas such as goods, services, investment, and procurement. We're getting closer to an agreement that benefits both sides.

You may know that I had the opportunity to meet with my European Union counterpart, Trade Commissioner Karel De Gucht, most recently this past week, but earlier in December, as part of a stock-taking exercise to determine whether the progress we had made was the basis on which to go forward. We are both pleased with the progress made so far and we agree that the negotiations are on track to conclude. We are also very encouraged by the unprecedented level of cooperation and flexibility we've seen on both sides. Both sides are determined, it seems, to actually work towards achieving an agreement.

Along with our European partners and our provincial and territorial representatives, who have been part of these negotiations from the very start—something, I might add, that has never before happened in Canadian history—our government is working hard to conclude a broad and ambitious agreement that will benefit Canadians across the country.

I would note, however, that we are also hearing some concerns—and in many cases, unfounded concerns—about certain areas under discussion. That includes culture. To many of us, this is a case of déjà vu.

At the time of the signing of the Canada-US Free Trade Agreement, and subsequently the North American Free Trade Agreement, we heard about the “end of Canada,” about how our economy and culture would be overwhelmed by our neighbours to the south. If anything, the opposite happened.

Free trade created jobs and prosperity right here in Canada, and today Canada is the envy of the world, economically and in quality of life.

The opponents of free trade also raised big fears about losing our culture, another fear that did not come to pass.

Our culture is alive and well, and Americans enjoy countless examples of Canadian books, television, music and art. Think of Céline Dion, Shania Twain, and now, Justin Bieber.

The federal government has demonstrated our commitment to culture from the very start. We've committed more than a billion dollars over five years in new and renewed investments for arts, culture, heritage and tourism—with our economic action plan providing about $335 million to directly support Canadian arts and culture.

On the international stage, Canada is actively working with our partners on a variety of co-production treaties and cultural exchange agreements with countries such as China, India, and Colombia. We also enjoy long-standing cultural relations with many key European countries, including France, the United Kingdom, and Germany, to name just a few.

We've also been a global leader in developing and implementing policies and conventions of the United Nations, including the United Nations Convention on the Protection and Promotion of the Diversity of Cultural Expressions.

As you know, the convention recognizes the importance of cultural diversity issues to international social and economic development. It gives countries like Canada the right to adopt policies and measures to protect and promote the diversity of cultural expressions.

The European Union, like Canada, considers the promotion and protection of culture to be an important policy objective. Let's not forget that the European Union is one of the most culturally diverse groups in the world. It's a single market with half a billion citizens across 27 countries, speaking 23 languages. If anybody understands the importance of culture and its place in society, it is the European Union—and that includes in trade negotiations.

As far back as 1989, during the Uruguay Round of negotiations on the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade, the predecessor to the World Trade Organization, we've worked closely with our European partners to ensure that countries could maintain the ability to address domestic cultural priorities.

In fact, Canada has a solid tradition of negotiating cultural exemptions, including in the Canada-United States Free Trade Agreement, the North American Free Trade Agreement, and many other free trade agreements.

Our current negotiations with the European Union are no different.

I can assure the members of this committee, and all Canadians, that any trade agreement we conclude with the European Union will preserve our respective abilities to pursue domestic cultural policy objectives. Our government remains squarely committed to defending our cultural interests—including in all our trade agreements.

So as these negotiations move forward, I hope that all members—and indeed, all Canadians—will not be distracted by the alarmist, disproven rhetoric from the usual naysayers about Canada's culture and way of life being put at risk by a trade agreement with the European Union.

Rather, I hope they focus on the facts—that Canadian culture is alive, well, and thriving—and on the great potential this agreement holds to create jobs and prosperity for Canadians across the country.

Thank you. I look forward to our discussion today.

Thank you. I look forward to answering your questions, with the help of Mr. Verheul.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Michael Chong

Thank you, Minister.

We have a 30-minute period for questions and comments.

I will first give the floor to Mr. Rodriguez.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Happy New Year to everyone. Good afternoon, Minister. Thank you for being here today.

Regarding culture, you say that we are hearing from alarmists, but that there is not much cause for concern. In addition, as you will no doubt remember, you also stated that: « I do not think that Canadians fear that our television, our literature or other sectors of our culture will be invaded by, let's say, Latvian literature ».

This statement gives me the impression that you took and that you are perhaps still taking the protection of culture somewhat lightly. And so I think, especially in light of that sort of statement, that there is indeed, on the contrary, reason to worry.

I would like to know what there is in that agreement, specifically, for the protection of cultural diversity.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Van Loan Conservative York—Simcoe, ON

Of course we're at an early stage, in that there is not a complete negotiation yet. The negotiations are in progress and the agreement is not yet in front of us. But we have made it clear throughout that we wish to obtain protection for our culture and our cultural industries in the same fashion as has been the case in previous free trade agreements, from the time of the Canada-U.S. Free Trade Agreement.

It is not a significant challenge. I know that some who are concerned about the free trade agreement, who generally oppose all free trade agreements, wish to elevate it to that, but the reality is that we have, across the table, a negotiating partner that is perhaps the one negotiating partner in the world with a greater sensitivity to cultural protection than Canada, with a greater interest--as I said, 27 member countries, with 23 languages, all of whom have a very strong interest, notwithstanding their creation of an economic union, to protect and preserve their culture.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

According to you, do our European partners view the cultural exemption in the same way as we do, or do they have a more restrictive view of it? Do they feel that it covers all audiovisual production and books?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Van Loan Conservative York—Simcoe, ON

Needless to say, again, you're asking a hypothetical about a cultural exemption that has not yet been completed and negotiated.

To give you an example of the concerns they raise, it has been our practice in the past, for example, to have a cultural exemption that says all chapters of this agreement are exempt insofar as it might affect cultural industries. But we're going to have a chapter on intellectual property, so they posed the question--and we're getting kind of philosophical here--if you're going to have protections for artists through an intellectual property chapter, then why are you going to exempt them in the name of protecting culture? We're getting into the philosophy of asking, are you protecting artists by exempting them from their own protections?

These are the kinds of concerns we're talking about. In the end, it really comes down to how you draft an agreement to best protect the culture. But again, the direction they are coming from is one where their interests are actually quite aligned with us. In fact, the European Union and Canada have quite commonly been partners in larger multilateral organizations in trying to advance...we have worked together closely to advance the interests of maintaining cultural exemptions in multilateral agreements.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

Thank you.

According to what you say, we should not be too concerned, but in reply to my two questions you say that things remain hypothetical given that you have not yet negotiated these parts. Consequently, there is cause for concern. I would like to have a minimum of guarantees.

Are the provinces, and Quebec in particular, consulted with regard to culture?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Van Loan Conservative York—Simcoe, ON

They've been consulted in a very unprecedented way. They're at the table. They are actually physically at the table participating in the negotiations. As a result, this puts us in a position where, particularly in the case of Quebec, the province with the strongest interest, they are able to, as negotiations unfold, as discussions go forward, offer their views on whether the solutions being discussed, the potential resolutions, the issues being raised, are of importance to them.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

Is the Minister of Canadian Heritage consulted as well? Is he a part of the process?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Van Loan Conservative York—Simcoe, ON

For the Province of Quebec?

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

No, the federal Department of Canadian Heritage. Are they involved? Are they part of the process?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Van Loan Conservative York—Simcoe, ON

They are indeed involved. In fact, we have a wide range of consultations within the government, among the public, and with affected cultural organizations in Canada.

I could give you a list of the cultural organizations that we've consulted, if I can find that.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

Could you table it? Could we have that?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Van Loan Conservative York—Simcoe, ON

I can certainly get you a list that we could produce.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Michael Chong

Mr. Van Loan, if you could table it with the clerk or have your staff table it with the clerk, that would be helpful.

Thank you, Mr. Rodriguez.

Madame Lavallée.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Welcome, Minister.

I must first off say that I am a little disappointed that you only spoke of the free trade treaty with the European Union. You did not broach issues related to cultural diversity at all, in particular the Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement (ACTA). I would like you to share with us Canada's position with regard to that agreement, which is negotiated at the international level.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Van Loan Conservative York—Simcoe, ON

I could have missed what you were saying due to the translation, but my understanding is that I am here today with Mr. Verheul for the first hour to discuss the CETA, the Canada-European Union negotiations.

In the next hour, I understand, you will have witnesses on the ACTA agreement. I did not understand that I was here to discuss ACTA today.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

Would it bother you to talk about the position your department defends within the framework of the ACTA negotiations? Are you in a position to tell us something about that?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Van Loan Conservative York—Simcoe, ON

Okay. Well, of course, the objective of the anti-counterfeiting agreement is one of creating greater protections for intellectual property rights, and that is obviously not exclusively but very much principally in the area of cultural industries--in film, writing, books, and audiovisual materials. We have governed our negotiating position based on Canada's existing law as well as legislation on copyright that is going through the parliamentary process.

We participated in the negotiations. What was arrived at is an agreement that by and large corresponds with those parameters that will allow for more effective cooperation with other countries in enforcing those intellectual property rights--again, to the benefit of the creators. We are waiting to see what happens to our own legislative processes before we proceed to the final stages of signing, because in order to sign we would obviously have to be comfortable that we can support that treaty with Canadian law.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

You are in fact touching on one of my questions. I wanted to ask you how you intend to line up the agreement you are negotiating with the copyright bill that is currently under study. If I understand correctly, we are first going to study Bill C-32. Afterward, in light of the results obtained, you are going to once again sit down at the table with representatives of several large industrialized countries to resume negotiations. Is it that correct?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Van Loan Conservative York—Simcoe, ON

I don't think that at this point in time it would be open to us to renegotiate the ACTA that has been completed. The question is whether or not Canada would be a party to it. In order to be a party to it, we would need to have laws that reflect it.

As presented to Parliament, Bill C-32 conforms, generally speaking, with the elements of the treaty, so that would be support of the implementation of the ACTA treaty.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

As you know, this international negotiation in a select club has given rise to a fair bit of criticism globally, in particular in Canada and in Quebec. We have difficulty understanding why you chose, in a manner of speaking, to create a private club. Perhaps this agreement should have been negotiated within the World Intellectual Property Organization, the WIPO. Why did you chose to hold these negotiations outside the framework of the WIPO or the WTO?

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Van Loan Conservative York—Simcoe, ON

The ACTA negotiation reflects the interests of a number of countries that feel they are in the vanguard, shall we say, of protecting intellectual property rights and protecting creators' rights. The concern is that there are other countries out there for which the actual protection has fallen short of the objectives of parties such as the European Union countries or Canada, which place a high value on that. We all know that there are countries where copyright infringement has become quite widely practised.

The objective of the countries involved was to create a group that raises the bar for intellectual property rights and for intellectual property rights enforcement in particular. That was the motive behind the anti-counterfeiting agreement, the ACTA. Obviously we support that. We view ourselves as being among those who place a higher value on creators' rights. That was the reason for involvement.

I know there were issues during the negotiation about some of the transparency and the availability of draft texts. Canada was always of the view that those should have been made public, but of course they could not be made public without the agreement of all the parties. We're pleased that most of those elements eventually did get made public in such a fashion that the public did have an opportunity to comment on them.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Michael Chong

Thank you very much, Minister Van Loan. Merci, Madame Lavallée.

Mr. Julian.