Canadian Heritage Committee on May 6th, 2013

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

We will get started. Monsieur Nantel, do you have a point of order?

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

Mr. Chair, I would like to speak, please.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

We have to follow our agenda, Monsieur Nantel, and that is to hear from our witnesses first. Everyone will get their turn as soon as we hear from our witnesses.

Welcome, Mr. Gregory and Mr. Maisonneuve, representatives from Operation Husky 2013. Welcome to our study of significant aspects of Canadian history. You are our first witnesses for this study and we appreciate your being here with us.

The way this committee works is that we have time for 10 minutes of opening remarks from our witnesses, then we go into a period of questions and hopefully answers. We look forward to that as well.

We will begin with your opening remarks. You can apportion it however you like, but for about 10 minutes. Thank you.

[Lieutenant-General, Retired) Michel Maisonneuve (Representative, Operation HUSKY 2013]

Mr. Chair, members of the committee, thank you very much.

First of all, I would like to thank you for inviting us to talk to you about Operation HUSKY 2013.

As a former general in the Canadian Forces, in which I served for 35 years, and as the director of studies of this jewel, the Saint-Jean Royal Military College—I have in fact circulated information documents about the college and I would invite you to read them—I feel that one of my roles is to make the future leaders of our Canadian Forces and the general public aware of the brilliant exploits of my predecessors. This is why I gladly agreed to help organize the commemoration of the 1943 Sicilian campaign.

Seventy years ago, most of the 26,000 Canadian soldiers involved in the campaign landed on Bark West beach near Pachino, on the southern tip of Sicily, the so-called “soft underbelly” of Europe on July 10, 1943. This was the beginning of Operation Husky, the start of the liberation of Italy by British, American, and Canadian forces. The campaign in Sicily would last just over four weeks, during which Canadians from coast to coast would battle through hundreds of kilometres of difficult mountainous country.

The landing was the largest to date of the war and remains one of the largest in history with nearly 3,000 Allied ships and landing crafts. The troops from the 1st Canadian Infantry Division and the 1st Canadian Armoured Brigade, commanded by General Guy Simonds, travelled from the U.K. to Sicily, and three of our ships carrying our troops and equipment were sunk by enemy submarines before the landing.

From Pachino Beach, our troops fought as they advanced. While constantly being slowed down by the German troops hiding in the almost impregnable hills and valleys, the Canadians formed the left flank of the British troops under the command of General Montgomery. To our left were the soldiers of the Seventh United States Army under the command of General Patton. My regiment, the 12th Canadian Armoured Regiment, which at that time was called the Three Rivers Regiment, because it came from the city of Trois-Rivières, fought for the duration of the campaign side by side with regiments such as the Royal 22nd Regiment, the Haystings & Prince Edward Regiment, the Royal Canadian Regiment and the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry.

I cannot emphasize enough the skill, daring, and courage of the Canadians who fought through this extremely difficult terrain, which greatly favoured the German and Italian defenders. You will be aware that Canadians had been bloodied at Dieppe the year previous. A victory was important for Canada at that time.

In all, 562 Canadians lost their lives in Sicily, and more than 2,300 were wounded. The problem is that few Canadians and allies know that Canada was involved in this 28-day campaign, and fewer still know of our victory. This is where Operation Husky 2013 comes in.

I will let Mr. Gregory, the founder of Operation Husky 2013, give more details presently, but let me just say that this civilian-led initiative aims to commemorate the campaign, to publicize Canadian gallantry, and to leave a lasting legacy for future generations to remember.

We aim to bring 562 Canadians to Sicily from July 10 to 30 this year to honour the 562 men we lost, and to celebrate those who came back victorious. Mr. Gregory will lead a group that will retrace on foot the route taken by Canadian troops and they will commemorate each location where we lost soldiers.

Mr. Gregory has given me the task of liaising with the Canadian Forces and supporting the operation in every possible way. Today, some 65 days prior to the operation, we have already contacted all of the units that fought in Sicily or those individuals who are in these units today.

We have received moral support from hundreds of Canadians. We have received assistance from many regions of the country and we have developed a series of events in Sicily for the campaign. Several fundraising activities have been organized and we have also received assistance from Veterans Affairs Canada in order to produce educational material for students. Our ambassador in Italy and his military attaché have provided a great deal of support in organizing our campaign. Officer cadets from the Saint-Jean Royal Military College have used operation Husky 2013 as a way to integrate the skills they are learning, and, with the support of the Royal Military Colleges Club of Canada Foundation, four of them will be able to support the coordination of activities in Sicily from July 10 to early August. In summary, we are very proud to have this opportunity to talk to you about this Canadian citizen-led initiative.

Mr. Steve Gregory is a businessman from Montreal. He is not a former military man, but his passion for our Sicilian campaign and his everyday support for our Canadian Forces make him one of the citizens most committed to ensuring that his fellow citizens are aware of our heritage. I am very proud to include him as one of my best friends and I will be happy to travel across Sicily with him in order to commemorate Operation Husky 2013.

We have left a commemorative item on your table.

We also left you a pin, which represents Operation Husky. I'm going to let Steve describe these, and why they're so important.

Mr. Chair and committee members, thank you very much.

Mr. Gregory, the floor is yours.

[Steve Gregory, Founder, Operation HUSKY 2013]

Mr. Chair, committee members, like Lieutenant-General Maisonneuve, I would like to thank you for this opportunity to talk about our project with you.

I'd like to take this chance to tell you about what we're planning for this summer in Sicily, and of course what we hope to leave behind. Perhaps you'd also like to know who is expected to participate.

Before I begin, you may be interested in knowing how all this came about. In the fall of 2005 my mother, then a spry 80-year-old widow, brought a handsome, charming guest to a Saturday family dinner. At our prodding, Charles Hunter, bombardier, original 39er, regaled my family with his stories as a young gunner in the Royal Canadian Artillery during World War II. My dad had served in the air force during the war and spoke little of it, as was customary for most Canadian veterans after the war. Charles, now 83, let loose a salvo of information at that dinner that rocked our house. We, or should I say I, had never heard of the Canadians in Sicily. Each town from Pachino to Adrano has its own story of pain, sacrifice, and triumph.

Two weeks later my fine son, then all of 11, announced that his grade 6 history project would be about the Battle of Assoro. What a fine tribute, I thought; Charles would be honoured. After weeks of searching Erik was disappointed at turning up very little in the way of written testimony to any Canadian presence in Sicily. As parents do, dad got involved, scouring the Internet. Libraries and bookstores yielded a troubling impression. The British and Americans had liberated Sicily. At most, the presence of Canadians was mentioned only as a footnote.

I'm sure no malice was intended by any of the authors. Patton's U.S. Army considered us merely as a colony of Britain. Montgomery and his 8th Army saw us as part of their Commonwealth, and for all intents and purposes, at least for the occasion, as British. Proud of our heritage and eager to serve the King, we made no effort to correct these misperceptions. As a result of this self-effacing manner, a 23,000-square-foot museum stands in Catania, Sicily, dedicated to the Allied landing of 1943, and it has not a single mention of Canada and only two Canadian artifacts, smaller than the size of your fist.

That brings us to today and to Operation Husky 2013, a civilian project led by Canadians. It is a project dedicated to sons, firstly my son, who innocently selected this topic for his history assignment and by doing so provided the catalyst for this commemoration. The 562 brave Canadian men who died on the hills of Sicily were also sons. Most of their parents never read much in the papers about Sicily and the sacrifices of their sons. Most never heard about their sons' experiences in Sicily and any story near the account of history, as will be described in the book that our project is preparing. Most, if not all, were never able to visit the site of their sons' graves.

In the summer of 2013, 70 years after the battle for Sicily, we will walk the path taken by these brave men, mark the place of the fallen, and remember those lost on all sides. Our mission is to honour the memory of those Canadians who fought and those who died in Sicily by organizing, as Michel said, the return of 562 Canadians this summer. We want to raise awareness among Canadians and leave a legacy that makes it near impossible for Canadian educators to exclude mention of these events in their curriculum.

Our project has one main event and several supporting activities. An opening event at Pachino on July 10 marks the beginning of the campaign. It is expected that about 50 Canadians and local dignitaries will attend the event. We will unveil a 3-metre-high monument that we're building at the site of the landing. U.S. and Italian servicemen will be in attendance. The main event, in Agira, on July 30, consists of a morning roll call in the cemetery at Agira, followed by an evening recreation of the Seaforth Highlanders of Canada pipe band concert that was actually broadcast on the CBC only days after the town fell in 1943. It was the first ever concert in a live theatre of war. It rallied our allies.

Between the 11th and the 29th this small group of participants will retrace the steps of the Canadian infantry regiments. They will walk 323 kilometres, and in all, will plant over 600 markers to the dead along our way. Each one of these markers is made by schoolchildren in Canada and in Sicily.

We'll perform 24 ceremonies, including six large ceremonies. A mobile museum will support our citizen outreach in Sicily and four regimental plaques will be unveiled in special ceremonies.

We will also open the new Canadian exhibit at the Museo dello Sbarco in Catania on July 31. The Ministers of Defence, Veterans Affairs, Foreign Affairs, and Canadian Heritage have been informed of the project. Lieutenant-General Devlin, Canadian Army Commander, has been briefed on the project. All of these leaders have offered their encouragement.

In addition, we'll leave as a legacy a network of Italian and Sicilian historians and educators who will be fully equipped to keep the memory of our men alive. A new book, and bilingual web-based materials, funded in large part by Veterans Affairs, will be available to tour operators and teachers, as well as students from across the country. The Telelatino Network has offered to produce a 90-minute documentary, of course, in Italian.

What are we still working on? We're still trying to raise enough money to fund documentaries in both English and French. We have funded the film crew, but don't have sufficient funds for post-production. We have a distributor, but no broadcaster at this moment. We have teamed up with former Senator Consiglio Di Nino to help build a monument to the Canadians who fell in Italy and Sicily, which would be in Toronto. That monument could be a reality as early as next year.

If you don't mind my being so bold, how can you help? Our success rests in large part upon the media that we'll be able to attract to these events. If you can help us get the Seaforth Highlanders concert on the airwaves of the CBC and Radio-Canada, we have the chance to attract the attention of every Canadian, as well as our allies, so that they may become aware of the tremendous contribution and sacrifices of our men. Any media coverage will also help us attract a broadcaster for the documentaries and this will help us fulfill our quest to get this amazing story into the hands of Canadian educators.

Lastly, of course, we would welcome your participation, any one of you, or all of you. We are still short Canadians for the roll call at the cemetery. Please join us.

In conclusion, few Canadians are aware that close to 100,000 Canadians fought in Italy, with over 26,000 casualties. Close to 6,000 men died. Per capita, that is more than any of our allies. Canadians from all over our land came together to fight in Sicily for what we asked of them in 1943. They fought for freedom against tyranny. They did and they punched above their weight.

They went unrecognized at the time, nor is Operation Husky common knowledge in Canada today. This project of commemoration may help us change that. You can help us spread the word.

My son's innocent questions were the catalyst for this project, but your influence can help us reclaim our history and honour the souls of the Canadian sons who fought and those who died in Sicily, so that their sacrifice will live on with us.

Thank you for having us today.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Thank you, Mr. Gregory.

Thank you Lieutenant-General Maisonneuve. We appreciate your presence here, and thank you for telling us a bit about Operation Husky 2013.

We'll begin our question and answer time, beginning with Mr. Calandra, for seven minutes.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to both our witnesses. I appreciate your coming here.

As you know, this is a very interesting study we're undertaking. As has been suggested in some quarters, it's not about telling our provincial partners what they should teach or how they should teach, but it's about how the federal government treats it and how we can get a better understanding out there. So thank you both for coming here.

I wonder if I might ask something more specific about the campaign. I'm an Italian Canadian and my parents came to Canada from Calabria, not too far from Sicily, and I know the Canadian troops followed through. What did the Canadians face when they actually landed in Sicily? What kind of conditions did they face?

I'm just going to let you talk, but I've been told a couple of things. First, the conditions were extreme, but second, the accomplishments of the Canadians and the speed at which they worked left not only our Allies impressed, but also the enemies at the time were impressed with the skill of the Canadians.

I wonder if you could give us a bit more of a description of what they faced, some of the key battles, and how they did.

[LGen Michel Maisonneuve]

I'll start and then hand it over to my friend Steve, who's been to Sicily several times.

Essentially, this was not a fighting landing that they did, i.e., there was not that much great defence on the beaches and so forth, but a few days inland they started getting really heavy resistance. Obviously, the resistance they were getting was not just from leftover troops. There were strong German shock troops propping up the Italian troops that were there as well.

Of course, probably as difficult as the enemy were the conditions there. Think of July, 45-degree heat, sun beating down on you while you were carrying heavy gear. You'd be walking on roads that were not prepared and so on, and you'd actually be fighting the enemy. It was amazing. The other thing was that the terrain, of course, was very hilly. The Canadians who fought through there and the speed at which they advanced were amazing. Canada had been bloodied at Dieppe, but essentially this was the first time that Canada fought as a nation, as a group, in the Second World War.

So it was a very important campaign, and I dare say it kind of set up Canada for the victory of the future during the Second World War.

Steve.

[Steve Gregory]

On the day of the landing, July 10, there were 10 Canadian casualities at the beach. So as Michel said, it wasn't a tremendous battle. They moved inland very quickly, and I should mention that they moved inland on foot. The three ships that were carrying our trucks were sunk, and this is why we will be retracing on foot. They suffered, and we think we can show the world that we can suffer.

The first three days were difficult walking, but relatively speaking, it was an easy slope. It wasn't until the second week that things got really difficult. The Canadians engaged the Hermann Göring division, and they were absolutely ferocious in their—I don't know what you call it in military terms—defensive withdrawal. What was unknown to the Americans and the English at the time was that the major German defences had moved inland toward the spine of mountains north of the Catanian plain, directly in our path.

The book that is being produced for this project by UNB and printed by Laurier University will produce new information that has been discovered in the Italian and German archives, which says that the Canadians really did much more than was previously known. So the terrain was difficult and the fighting was amazing.

That said, the veterans, as well as the Sicilians I have met on numerous trips back, tell stories of the Canadian soldiers not eating while they gave the food rations that they had to the townsfolk, in Modica in particular. So it was pretty spectacular. I think the Canadians did much more than was expected of them.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

Thank you.

I just want to be careful with my time. How much do I have?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

You have two and a half minutes.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

Perfect.

This is not a criticism, but with respect to how National Defence allows these stories to get out there, obviously, it wasn't easy for your son to access these stories through the Internet. I wonder if you have any suggestions. This is an extraordinary start, obviously. You can see that some media have joined us today, because I'm sure they're excited to hear about this operation. How easy was it to get resources from the Government of Canada websites on this?

[Steve Gregory]

There is just not much written about the Canadian involvement in Sicily. You might remember Farley Mowat. Farley Mowat actually was in the Hastings and Prince Edward Regiment. He was at the Battle of Assoro. He, as well as Lord Tweedsmuir, wrote more about it than anyone else did. Some Canadian authors have produced some material, but really, quite frankly, I don't think the government could do anything. There's just nothing written about it. The only people who have written about this are people the likes of Granatstein, Terry Copp, Dr. Windsor, and Mark Zuehlke. But this is the work of historians at universities and colleges, not of our government.

I can only tell you the experience that we've had with Veterans Affairs, Foreign Affairs in particular, and National Defence. We didn't ask for anything, first of all. We wanted this to be a civilian project. We weren't coming to the government for anything, but it was pretty obvious that producing the book was going to be outside of our means and would fit within the Veterans Affairs' mandate. We undertook a request for funding a few years back, and they were phenomenal. They were exceptional.

[LGen Michel Maisonneuve]

Sicily was a 28-day campaign. Of course it's very important for us, because of the things I said in terms of it being the first very successful campaign of the Second World War. But when you look at it in the context of the entire war, it's tiny. By the time the war ended, we had the third largest navy in the world. We had a million people under arms, whereas this was a campaign with 26,000 Canadians. We lost 562; in the entire war we lost 47,000. So understanding that Husky itself is not well-known, we think it's worth telling the story.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Thank you, Mr. Calandra.

Next, for seven minutes, we have Mr. Nantel.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

I would like to thank you very much for sharing information about a battle that is not well known.

A while earlier, our neighbours opposite said that we were criticizing the study. What we are criticizing is an issue that I will not delve into out of respect for everything that you represent and all the sacrifices that the people you represent have made. We will have our conversation during the second part of this committee meeting.

In your opinion, how is it that even veterans are not more knowledgeable about this battle at Pachino? I am thinking, for example, of my former neighbour, who is now nearly 92 years old, and a participant in the Second World War. We have discussed the war at great length, but he never talked about this battle. How do you explain this silence that exists even within the military corps?

[LGen Michel Maisonneuve]

I think that the first reason is, as I explained earlier, the size of the battle and the duration of the campaign. Sicily is an island, and as a result, the campaign as such lasted only 28 days and only 26,000 Canadians participated. I say “only”, but that is still a big number. We lost 562 Canadians, but during the Second World War, a million Canadians were enlisted. Furthermore, we lost 47,000 Canadians during the Second World War. So there is a difference in the size. Nevertheless we believe that Operation Husky 2013 is important because it was this battle that really tested Canadians. We had committed an entire division and a full brigade of Canadians, an armoured brigade. For the first time, Canadians fought together after making a landing. Later on, there would be the landing in Normandy. I feel that this is quite significant. We feel that this story needs to be told.

[Steve Gregory]

I am thinking about my father's experience. My father did not talk to us about anything. He did not talk about his exploits, about his experiences. I think that this is, to some extent, what characterize these men. In addition, there was the age factor. Indeed, those who served in Sicily had been deployed in England in 1939, whereas many more Canadians joined the army after 1939. If they were there in 1941, 1942, 1943, they were not in Sicily. So, in my opinion, the First Canadian Infantry Division was three years old and was worthy of this deployment. I am not a historian,

but that's what I think.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

Since the election, we often meet with the Royal Canadian Legions and it is a pleasure to meet these people who have given so much. It is also a pleasure to see that, generally speaking, they take on the responsibility themselves to raise money and make contacts with organizations involving much younger people, often teens and youths. Just like grandparents who offer a symbolic gift, their goal is really to strike up a conversation with the young person to make him or her aware of what happened so that this hard-won freedom is not taken for granted.

So I am wondering about internal communications with respect to Veterans Affairs. Indeed, I am always surprised to see how the sections are fragmented and divided. For example, were you able to promote your concern for Operation Husky 2013 in the Royal Canadian Legions?

[Steve Gregory]

Yes, but that was not our objective, Mr. Nantel. For us, this is a civic project, a project led by Canadian citizens. We definitely did not want this to be about soldiers thanking other soldiers for the sacrifices made by other soldiers. We want to make the public, my son, my daughter and their friends aware of the sacrifices made by these men.

In English, our national anthem says, “We stand on guard for thee”.

I sing it, but at the Bell Centre.

I don't stand on guard for thee. These men did. All we want to do is hopefully bring Canadians to see the sacrifice that these men undertook on our behalf.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

Thank you.

However, I did in fact hear Mr. Maisonneuve say earlier that, when all is said and done, this is not something that the government can do. This is the work of historians. I would like you to tell us—

[Steve Gregory]

I was talking about citizens.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

—a little bit more about this.

[Steve Gregory]

I cannot imagine our society functioning without citizens getting involved.

As far as I'm concerned, it really is an issue for our historians and our museums to continue to promote these notions and ideas. Certainly, the people who were of the greatest help to me and my projects were authors like Mark Zuehlke, for instance, a private sector author, and Lee Windsor from the University of New Brunswick, and all of his researchers. They were the ones that, as far as I'm concerned, gave us the best effort.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

Thank you.