Canadian Heritage Committee on March 27th, 2014

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Do you organize any events or activities to inform Canadians of that valuable resource's existence?

[Hervé Déry]

We are increasingly working with other institutions, such as museums, and with people from the much larger industry of memory institutions. That way, we can use their facilities and participate in their collections. In that context, the participation and contribution of Library and Archives Canada is recognized.

Moreover, when we make a major acquisition or we have new programs or developments, we issue press releases to inform Canadians.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

This may not necessarily be part of your job, but how do you suggest you could better inform everyone?

[Hervé Déry]

I think we can certainly make improvements in terms of external communications.

To attract people's attention, I also think it is more effective to issue releases when we have a specific event to announce. In that context, we can inform people by working more closely with other institutions. We use those opportunities to announce other products available at Library and Archives Canada.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

We discussed with other guests the importance of making sure we are complying with the law when we search for Canadian music online in order to protect musicians' interests.

What do you do on that front when you add something to your collection?

[Hervé Déry]

We adhere very strictly to copyright law.

Many items in our collections are several years old and are therefore no longer subject to copyright. However, if copyright does apply to the collection, we never make the material available. Our preservation mandate applies in such cases. Once the copyright has expired, we can make the collection available.

When a special request is submitted for items of our collection still subject to copyright, we make sure to follow up with the copyright holders to obtain their permission before we make the material available.

We are very strict in that regard. We always ensure to respect copyright.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Monsieur Déry and Mr. Hutton, you've both talked about the increasing universality of our Canadian artists and how they're being respected around the world. It's something which I think makes all of us proud. I come from West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky, where many internationally renowned musicians reside in our midst.

This is probably an unfair question, but what are you doing, if anything, to cooperate, to leverage your efforts? What do you do to look for other partners to help you achieve your mandates to make our Canadian artists better known? Given that no group in this day and age can operate alone, is there a real emphasis on cooperating, collaborating, and working with other partners?

[Scott Hutton]

For many of the things, whether it is with respect to music or television at the CRTC, we have our own specific role and our own area, which is regulation of broadcast services. What we're finding as we're looking at the new environment is that you need to be able to reach out to find new ways to help with the consumption of Canadian product. Quotas or other means still work, and certainly work for the industries that we continue to regulate, but in terms of various things that we're doing with respect to cooperation, we do share a lot of data and information with our friends at Canadian Heritage, who were up here in your first meeting on this particular subject.

For example, we leverage some of our regulatory abilities to ask private broadcasters to contribute towards funds that cooperate with the Canada Music Fund with Canadian Heritage. We work with the broadcasters to leverage some of their funds in Starmaker.

The francophone counterpart is Musicaction.

Those are certainly many of our traditional means of collaboration.

We highlighted here that in some of our reviews we found that community radio was a very good place to play or discover new forms of music. Community radio is certainly an area where there is a variety of different music that is not played on commercial radio and where certainly new artists find their spot. That has been an area of additional collaboration, where we've tried to ensure that maybe there is a better source of funding for community radio stations across the nation and have highlighted moneys there.

What are we doing now towards the future? We're certainly looking at reaching out to other regulators around the world to see if there means to collaborate. For example, what are best practices is an easy way to go about it, but also we're working with institutions like the Banff World Media Festival to maybe invite other regulators here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Thank you. We're going to have to move on.

We're going to hear from Ms. Mathyssen and Monsieur Nantel for seven minutes.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I've been looking forward very much to having a chance to talk to our witnesses, but before I do, I wanted to advise you that I'm going to be putting forward a notice of motion, and I think it's important, that the Standing committee on Canadian Heritage undertake a study of regional broadcasting under the Canada Media Fund and that the committee report this study to the House. I have my motion in both official languages. I'll just pass it on to the clerk.

Thank you very much.

Witnesses, thank you so much for being here.

I think I'll direct my questions towards Library and Archives Canada, not that I am not very fond of the CRTC.

I've been very cognizant of the absolute imperative nature of the work that LAC does. When we look back at this incredible history, this incredible treasure that you have collected and will collect in future, we cannot overstate how important it is to our history, to our sense of selves as Canadians.

I was concerned about some of the issues around staffing and budgets, because I know that you did experience some cuts. Now you have access to $360,000 for the music memories segment of the Canada Music Fund.

How do you spend that? How do you determine which musical pieces will be chosen from the program? It would seem to me there is this plethora of incredible possibilities out there. How do you decide?

[Hervé Déry]

Thank you, and we really appreciate your support toward our mandate.

There are two parts to your question.

First, on the $360,000, these moneys are devolved and devoted to support our musical industry. For example, we developed in the last few years the virtual gramophone website. That money was instrumental in that. We also used that money for some very specific acquisitions. For instance, we completed the collection of recordings by La Bolduc.

We also use that money for some specific investments. For example, we use that money to support the installation of shelving designed especially for sound recording. Also, very importantly, we use that money to purchase state-of-the-art audio preservation equipment. The audio preservation equipment is something that's a challenge for us, because we have to make sure we acquire the equipment that can be used to play the music on very old formats. We have to maintain that equipment. We also want to make sure that we have state-of-the-art equipment.

The second part of your question was as to how we decide. First, we have legal deposit. Since 1969 we acquire automatically, working with the industry, all the pieces that have Canadian content. Also, we try actively to acquire pieces that are prior to the legal deposit, so the older things. When there are opportunities on the market, we try to acquire them. Generally speaking, we also try to acquire the works for national figures through specific individual purchases.

That's basically how we do it.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

You've said that you try to acquire pieces, things for the archives. Are you experiencing limitations? Are there some things that are slipping away and that we will regret in future years simply because you don't have the funds? In the case of staffing cuts, it seems to me that you have a very talented group of very specialized people in terms of the library. I know that you lost a significant number of those people in September 2013.

What is lost, in regard to these archivists, these remarkably talented people, and how do you manage?

[Hervé Déry]

Yes, indeed, we do have a very, very strong history and strong professionals working at Library and Archives. We don't feel that we're not equipped to manage and to meet our mandate. We prioritize like any other department. I think that so far we have been able to acquire what we need, especially through our legal deposits. A legal deposit is a mechanism by which we automatically receive at least the basics that we need to preserve for the long run.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

I note that you've hired on a temporary basis or rehired some 16 archivists for a short contract. In the process of this shifting in staffing, did you lose to other areas good people who were impossible to replace? Did you lose a talent pool such that you're now feeling the bite from that loss?

[Hervé Déry]

Well, like in any other organization, there are people who leave organizations and who are prepared to retire. At the end of the day, we have what I would say are fairly rigorous HR planning processes. We try to make sure when we hire newcomers and new archivists that there is a transition with a communication of information. We feel that so far we've been quite successful in attracting good people to replace those who have to leave.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

Thank you for joining us today.

The quotas worked very well. As you said, the quotas on Canadian content really helped build our identity and our heritage. They also helped create many jobs. We are now living in a new world where I would say people can pick and view anywhere, while previously, we would wait to hear something we liked.

What do you think is the next step that will have the same effect the quotas had 30 years ago?

[Scott Hutton]

We cannot know whether an initiative will have the same effect. We must be careful not to apply old methods to a new reality. A number of things have been noted. Technology has changed, and people are no longer making purchases in the same way. This is a new environment, and our mandate is to ensure that Canadian content—including audiovisual content—is available on various platforms.

We must remember that Canadian consumers' behaviour is changing, and I think this is what you are referring to.

We are trying to find a solution, but we have not found it yet. We are working on the major project of reviewing regulations and policies that apply to audio and audiovisual content. We also have the initiative Let's Talk TV: A Conversation with Canadians.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to move to Monsieur Dion.

You'll get a chance to go back to that again.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Mr. Hutton, you can use my time to finish your answer. However, I ask that you be brief because I also have other questions for you.

[Scott Hutton]

Canadian consumers are consuming in a different way. A quota can simply be applied on streaming services, but what is a streaming service? Is it similar to broadcasting? Certain streaming services are more popular than others. I remember my last appearance before the committee. Your daughter probably makes her own decisions on what she wants to watch. Personal choices should not be regulated. That is probably not something that should be done. Instead, new ways to discover music should be looked at.

What is currently on the market is not perfect. We made some suggestions in our presentation to the committee. Appearances were made earlier by artists and their representatives, associations, record companies, and so on. Now, a whole set of considerations must be managed. Money is no longer coming from record sales alone.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Thank you for joining us today and for being so patient.

Your patience was rewarded in that you had the opportunity to hear what a number of witnesses had to say. One of the points they made was that creators and those who support them were earning a lot less than they did before because of all the new technologies for listening to music.

First of all, would you agree with that assessment? And if so, how can we change the regulations so that creators are able to derive the benefits of what they created?

[Scott Hutton]

In the audio industry mainly, and to a lesser extent in the television industry, the piece of the pie has shrunk. As we heard, Canada has the seventh largest music market in the world. And as far as our international sales are concerned, we hover between second and third place. The figures in terms of the number of albums or musical selections sold remain steady. The drastic drop in revenues in the market is likely due to technological advancements, but it also has to do with the fact that consumers have changed their behaviour.

On the radio side of things, the regulations appear to be working. That's what we're seeing now. So it isn't the time to change them. The situation is stable. Revenues and profits have neither increased nor decreased. The fact that royalty payments are being generated really does a lot not just for content development but also for discovery and compensation.

What should be done to support the music industry? Money shouldn't be the only focus; it is also important to look at whether production is happening, whether it is possible to communicate and flourish in the field. Naturally, having money is helpful. But that money has to be generated in a new way. Yes, it's important to sell T-shirts and concert tickets. But, in our view, it is increasingly necessary to focus on the brand power of the product and the artist, on the way listeners are first exposed to the artist and on methods to stimulate sales of the artist's various products.

Selling more records means finding new ways of exposing audiences to artists and enabling that discovery. The major streaming systems use all kinds of private algorithms. What components in those algorithms make it possible to find and suggest music to Canadians? That's the kind of question we need to ask ourselves and try to answer.

What are people looking at? They probably keep up with the latest online and through social networks. That means it's necessary to make sure our artists are on those networks and using them actively, not just to communicate with Canadians, but also to generate the types of electronic products that will help put Canadian music front and centre.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

If I have enough time left, I'd like to come back to you.

My next question is for Mr. Déry and Ms. Muir.

In 2012-13, you had a budget of $119 million. This year, you had $99 million, and in 2014-15, you'll have $96 million.

Does that diminish your ability to carry out the work of preserving Canada's musical history and heritage?

[Hervé Déry]

No, I don't think so.

In the budget, money was earmarked for special investment projects. The cuts to our operating budget were similar to those imposed on the rest of the departments, about 10%.

While that decrease may seem larger than that imposed across government, it has to do with the fact that money had been allocated to Library and Archives Canada for special investment projects and those projects were completed. We can now benefit from those investments, which were put towards infrastructure that we use. In that context—especially as far as the legal deposit is concerned—we are now in a position to acquire what we need to and protect our acquisitions in the long term.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Since I have a bit of time left, I'm going to come back to you, Mr. Hutton.

One of our earlier witnesses recommended that we implement the Berne Convention in Canada. He said that we are the country that does the least regulating in this area, that too many exceptions exist and that copyrights are not respected enough. All of that does enter into the CRTC's mandate, to some extent.