Canadian Heritage Committee on Jan. 30th, 2024

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I certainly agree with the points that you've made, Ms. Tait, that the issue of disinformation and hate.... We've seen the far right and their massive propaganda infrastructure, Fox Media, and Meta, which allows through its algorithms tragic growth of toxic hate in all of its forms, Islamophobia, anti-Semitism, racism, misogyny, homophobia, transphobia, all of those toxic forms of hate.

We need to have an institution like the CBC that provides that balance and provides for the real information to counter the far-right disinformation that is washing over North America.

I note a couple of things. First off are the massive subsidies—a billion dollars per year—that go to Meta and Google when they have not been responsible in any way in being a voice to counter this hate and disinformation. Do you feel it's appropriate that the federal government subsidize so massively and directly the advertising for Meta and Google?

Second, you've mentioned the growth of digital services. You mentioned the streaming service, Gem. I'd like you to take the opportunity to talk more about the budget that you have in terms of digital and streaming services and what the results have been, both of promoting digital resources—you flagged the BBC—and of promoting streaming services like Gem. What have the results been?

[Catherine Tait]

With regard to your first question, I don't feel that it's appropriate for me to comment on the government policy with respect to Google and Meta. I can only really speak about how the public broadcaster responds in a world where digital giants are more and more taking the air out of the ecosystem.

I'm going to invite Barb Williams, who hasn't had a chance yet, to speak, because some of the most interesting digital results that we saw during the pandemic actually stemmed from the CBC.

Barb, would you like to describe...? Maybe take the example of how people are watching The National today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Ms. Tait, go through the chair, please.

Ms. Williams.

[Catherine Tait]

I beg your pardon.

[Barbara Williams, Executive Vice-President, CBC, CBC/Radio-Canada]

Thank you.

We've had some really interesting and, I think, very important success digitally with all of our CBC, both news and entertainment, programming.

What Catherine is referring to specifically with regard to The National is that I think a lot of people may note that the actual TV viewing of The National every night at 10 on the CBC main channel has been down. In fact, there are maybe only 300,000 on average who watch it on the CBC main channel.

Another few hundred thousand watch it on CBC News Network, which is another television offering, and another 450,000 views of The National happen every day on YouTube. Another 40,000 watch it on Explore, our streaming channel, and another 50,000 watch it on Gem and the CBC News app.

When you put it all together, night after night what you are seeing is that the attention paid to The National by Canadians is 1.2 million, 1.3 million, 1.4 million people, depending on the night. It is significant and valid and really important that this information is being shared. A lot of that is happening the next morning, because morning is now the new prime time. This is all part of what is the shifting and fragmentation and rediscovery of content with new behaviours.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Ms. Williams.

You beat Martin's record, Peter.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

I can keep talking, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

We'll go to the Conservatives.

Mr. Scheer, you have five minutes, please.

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

Thank you very much.

I'm sure that we can agree on some metrics that reasonable people would use to measure the success of a broadcasting corporation. Would you agree that measuring viewership or ratings is a reasonable metric to measure the success of a broadcaster?

[Catherine Tait]

Viewership is one metric, and so is usership.

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

I would say that it's an important metric when you're talking about a broadcaster.

You said a few minutes ago that ad revenue was a major—I think that's the word you used—driver of whether or not you judge success.

Would ad revenue also be a reasonable measure of success for a broadcaster?

[Catherine Tait]

It would be one of the variables, yes.

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

Right, okay. There's viewership, yes; ad revenue, yes; trust, also—whether or not people can trust what they're seeing on TV, especially when you run news outlets. You would agree, I hope, that trust in media would also be a measure of success.

[Catherine Tait]

Absolutely.

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

Okay, and therefore, errors would be another measure of success or failure. If there aren't a lot of errors, that would be a good thing. If there are a lot of errors, that would be a bad thing. Would you agree with that?

[Catherine Tait]

I would actually give a different response on errors. I think error is a natural part of journalism, and the fact that CBC/Radio-Canada posts its corrections as quickly as we do is actually a demonstration of why we are trusted, unlike others who may not.

I would say that's a trusted source.

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

Wow. The speed with which you correct your errors is the way that you measure performance at the CBC.

We've agreed that viewership is an important metric. We've agreed that ad revenue is an important metric, as is trust.

Fewer Canadians are watching the CBC than ever before. Viewership has plummeted to half of what it was when you became CEO in 2018. Ad revenue has also crashed. In fact, it was down 31% in just one year, 2022 to 2023. Trust in media, especially in the CBC, has also declined.

The NDP talk about misinformation. The CBC has had to issue more than 100 corrections for grave errors in reporting, and that obviously has had an impact on trust.

Given all these important metrics that you have agreed on, what justification do you have for issuing performance awards?

[Catherine Tait]

I want to correct a couple of your points, if I may, Madam Chair.

First of all, the 30% drop in revenue was between an Olympics year and a non-Olympics year. In fact, during the years you're describing, we had two Olympic games, so we had a much higher level of ad revenue during those years. That explains the drop there.

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

Were ad revenues in 2023 higher than in 2022?

[Catherine Tait]

I would say they were flat.

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

They were flat.

[Catherine Tait]

That is, by the way, very much part of what's going on in the industry. Television is in decline, not just at CBC. At CTV and Global, television is in decline, and people are moving to streaming and they're moving to their connected television.

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

With all due respect, CBC has almost half a billion dollars in real estate holdings across the country—big, fancy buildings in downtowns across the country. You get over a billion dollars in taxpayers' money to be a television broadcaster and radio broadcaster.

When those metrics are down, how do you justify giving performance awards to people whose job it is to increase viewership, to increase ad revenue, to increase trust?

[Catherine Tait]

Madam Chair, if I may, I don't agree with the premise.

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

You don't agree that ad revenue is down? You don't agree that viewership is down?