Evidence of meeting #14 for Canadian Heritage in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pieces.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Gideon  Deputy Minister, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs
Barozzi  Chief Audit and Evaluation Executive, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs
Wright  Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs

The Chair Liberal Lisa Hepfner

I'm going to call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 14 of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage.

Before we begin, I'd ask all in-person participants—all of us are in person today, I believe—to please read the guidelines written on the cards on the table. They are measures in place to help prevent audio incidents and to protect the health and safety of all participants, including our interpreters. You will notice that there is a QR code on the card that links to a short awareness video, should you need it.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before you speak. All comments should be addressed through the chair.

Before we begin, I need a mover to adopt two operational budgets. One is in the amount of $25,700 for our study on the effects of influencers and social media content.

Monsieur Champoux, thank you.

(Motion agreed to)

The second one is an additional amount of $2,000 to cover snacks and meals for our study on the effects of technological advances.

Are you moving that, Mr. Myles? Will you move for snacks?

David Myles Liberal Fredericton—Oromocto, NB

I'll move for snacks, yes. Let's make sure there are good snacks.

(Motion agreed to)

The Chair Liberal Lisa Hepfner

That's good.

On to today's meeting, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Wednesday, October 29, this committee is meeting for the consideration of the audit of the indigenous art collection.

We have with us today, from the Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs, Valerie Gideon, deputy minister; Rob Wright, associate deputy minister; and Stephanie Barozzi, chief audit and evaluation executive.

I will note, for committee members, that our original motion asked for the director of the Indigenous Art Centre. That position is vacant, so we were unable to fulfill that request.

Am I giving the deputy minister and the associate deputy minister five minutes each? No, you're going to present together, and then we'll hear from the auditor of the report, Ms. Barozzi.

We'll start with the deputy minister. You have the floor for five minutes.

Valerie Gideon Deputy Minister, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs

Thank you very much to the chair and to members of the committee. We appreciate the opportunity to appear before you today to speak about the Indigenous Art Centre and its stewardship of the indigenous art collection by Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada.

With me today are associate deputy minister Rob Wright and chief audit and evaluation executive Stephanie Barozzi.

The indigenous art collection is a national cultural treasure. It consists of more than 5,000 contemporary pieces created by first nations, Inuit and Métis artists from across the country. These pieces express identity, history and resilience. They are an important economic engine for artists and communities and are an essential element of reconciliation, since they honour the cultural rights, artistic expression and self-determination of the indigenous people.

Over the last several years, our department has undertaken significant modernization of how the collection is cared for, documented and shared with Canadians. We have relocated the collection to a secure, climate-controlled facility that meets professional standards. We have put in place strengthened environmental controls, digital tracking systems, condition reporting and professional storage and handling procedures consistent with current national museum standards. We also maintain a robust loan program that supports national and international exhibitions, ensuring that indigenous artists and their work reach audiences across the country and the world.

Some time ago, our department commissioned an internal audit in order to do an exhaustive examination of the management of the indigenous art collection. The audit was not triggered by a single incident. Rather, it is part of our risk-based audit plan and reflects our commitment to transparency, accountability and continuous improvement.

The audit confirmed numerous strong points, including the roles and responsibilities established within the Indigenous Art Centre for collection management, secure storage, emergency plans and pest management, and inventory processes improvement.

The audit also revealed a number of things to be improved, and thus led to a number of recommendations that include complete resolution of gaps in recordkeeping that were inherited from earlier decades, documentation of the deaccession and disposal process, and an analysis of long-term lifecycle costs for preserving and promoting the collection.

We fully accept the recommendations of the audit, and work is well under way to implement all of them. This includes reviewing and updating policy instruments, establishing stronger contract and oversight frameworks, and reconciling historical records. Importantly, the audit also encouraged us to reflect on whether our department is the right long-term custodian of the collection or whether a transfer to a long-standing national institution with indigenous governance should be explored. We welcome that conversation.

For more than 30 years, the indigenous art collection's mandate has included the possibility of indigenous custodianship. We are just at the initial stages of looking at alternative models, such as indigenous-designed approaches, that uphold artistic integrity, public accountability and cultural sovereignty. Again, we welcome feedback in that context. One important consideration will be the importance of maintaining the integrity of the collection.

Throughout this work, we remain determined to support indigenous artists. The Indigenous Art Centre has directly contributed to the living earned by artists for several decades, through acquisitions, exhibition expenses and reproduction royalties. We will continue to ensure that artists receive fair compensation and the collection continues to support indigenous cultural and economic development.

Stewardship of the indigenous art collection is a responsibility that we take seriously. We acknowledge the legacy challenges identified by the audit, and we are acting on them with urgency. We also recognize that reconciliation requires listening, adapting and being open to change, including the possibility of indigenous-led custodianship of the collection in the future.

Wela’liek.

I'd be pleased to, with Rob and Stephanie, answer your questions.

The Chair Liberal Lisa Hepfner

Thank you.

Do we have an opening statement from Stephanie as well?

Stephanie Barozzi Chief Audit and Evaluation Executive, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs

No, I don't have one prepared.

The Chair Liberal Lisa Hepfner

That's fair enough.

I will turn, then, to Mrs. Thomas to begin our round of questions.

You have the floor for six minutes.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Thank you.

My first question here is for Ms. Gideon.

There are five recommendations that were given in the action plan outlined in the audit. The planned implementation for those five recommendations was March 31, 2025.

You're saying that things are well under way. However, with a March 31, 2025, deadline, they shouldn't be well under way; they should be completed. Why aren't they?

4:40 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs

Valerie Gideon

We do have a number of actions that actually have been completed.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

I'm not asking about the ones that have been completed. I'm asking why there are some that have not been completed.

4:40 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs

Valerie Gideon

In terms of the first recommendation, we do have a draft of the policy document clarifying roles and responsibilities, and we expect that to be approved certainly prior to the March 31, 2026, timeline that we've adjusted in the management response action plan.

We have signed the contract with our third party storage suppliers, so that action has been completed, and we are continuing to work with Public Services and Procurement Canada on the next storage facility after 2027, when we will have to vacate the Tunney's Pasture Goldenrod facility. That is something that we are working very closely with PSPC on.

In terms of the biannual report to the corporate secretary, that is going to be completed by next month or January 2026, and an annual report to the deputies is going to be institutionalized by March 2026. I can assure you that I do meet regularly with the corporate secretary, who reports directly to me. We also have had discussions and presentations about this audit and the indigenous art collection on a regular basis at our senior management committee meeting.

We have completed the baseline cost analysis, providing various scenarios for the third party contractor for the storage facility, and we have completed the fact that this cost analysis would be updated every five years.

We are continuing to work on other things. We've instituted security cameras—all of that has been completed. We have also drafted new standard operating procedures, and final approval of those will be by March 2026.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Ms. Gideon, in the interest of time, I am going to move on.

I think what's clear, though, is that there were recommendations that were signed off on to be completed by March 31, 2025, and they have not been. In fact, they will not be completed, you're saying, until the spring of 2026 and maybe even beyond. I do think some further answers are needed there, but I don't know that we'll get those today.

Ms. Barozzi, are you able to identify the pieces that are missing? You said in your report that there are 132 pieces that are unaccounted for. Do you know which pieces those are?

4:40 p.m.

Chief Audit and Evaluation Executive, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs

Stephanie Barozzi

I do not know which pieces they are. In our audit, we were provided with a list of what was called “unaccounted for”. There were various reasons. We were told that some of them were missing, but we did not do any further audit work on it, because the value was not as high compared with the rest of the collection. We focused our work on the pieces that were in inventory and in the vault.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Ms. Gideon, are you aware of which pieces these 132 missing artworks are?

4:40 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs

Valerie Gideon

We do have an inventory of those that are identified as the 132. The work of the team continues with respect to being able to determine this. Some of these are duplicate records. Some of these are based on when we transitioned in 2010 to a new information management system. Some of them have been located. At least 12 pieces have been located, and 20 are reproductions of existing artworks. We do have a list.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

You have 132 pieces missing, with maybe 12 recovered. That brings us to 120 still unaccounted for. You have a list. Therefore, you know the artists of these pieces. Have they been notified?

4:40 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs

Valerie Gideon

I would just say that in terms of the unaccounted pieces, because we are following the category A federal heritage collection rules and procedures—

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

With all due respect, you're actually not following that. As was mentioned in the audit, there aren't proper security cameras. Three pieces were damaged by water. There's no temperature control. None of this is according to protocol for category A.

4:40 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs

Valerie Gideon

We did receive category—

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

I'll go back to my original question, Ms. Gideon. Have you identified which artists' pieces are missing, and have you told those artists? That's my question.

4:40 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs

Valerie Gideon

Under the federal heritage collection rules and procedures for category A—we received an inspection of the current facility that validated the category A status—the pieces have not been, to use the technical terminology, deaccessioned. We are not notifying, because the pieces are not deaccessioned.

I want to correct one thing. Twenty of those are reproductions, not original pieces of art. That also needs to be factored into the total assessment.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

You used the word “deaccessioned”.

4:45 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs

Valerie Gideon

That's correct.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

What does that mean?

4:45 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs

Valerie Gideon

That is where the piece would be identified and categorized as missing with certainty. These pieces have not yet met that threshold.