Environment Committee on Jan. 31st, 2007

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Do you believe that greater homogeneity must be achieved in the comprehensive audit that you conduct, including the work of the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development?

[Sheila Fraser]

May I ask the member for some clarification?

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

I want to know whether, in ensuring that there's one less report and that the Commissioner's report is included in the general audit, we wouldn't arrive at a kind of homogenization of audit parameters. Even though it's environmental, the audit would then be conducted in the context of a more comprehensive audit and might not include very particular indicators specific to the environment.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Ms. Fraser, could I possibly get you to include that in your next answer? We're over the time.

Mr. Bigras, in all fairness to the Auditor General, I advise you that we had a discussion, and it came down to one report versus a number of reports. My feeling is that we should try to put the highest profile we can on the environment. We should try it for a year and see if it works.

So we had that discussion, and today we have input directly to the Auditor General. I think that's very positive.

Mr. Cullen.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Fraser, for being here.

This is a struggle. There's obviously a conflicting view of some of the things that have transpired in the last 24 hours. As a parliamentarian, I'm struggling to determine what happened, because in essence, at the end of the day, it seems that the country has lost the advocacy of a voice within your office that was able to clearly describe the shortcomings of government and was a strong call to action. Members of this committee and across the entire parliament used that voice effectively.

You've said repeatedly that the work of Madame Gélinas was of good quality. But what I do not understand is that from the testimony you gave yesterday and the very strong impression left—and this is a critical factor—is that Madame Gélinas left of her own free will to pursue other options; what we believe today is that she was terminated. It is very difficult for me to reconcile those two views, and this matter is essential to what we're talking about.

[Sheila Fraser]

I'm sorry, Mr. Chair, but as I indicated earlier, I cannot comment on that issue.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

When the commissioner produces a report, do you review it?

[Sheila Fraser]

Yes.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Is there an editing process that your office takes on in the comments made?

[Sheila Fraser]

The commissioner's report and any audit done by the commissioner's group follows—and this will be in part a response to Mr. Bigras' question—exactly the same process as any audit that is done in the Office of the Auditor General.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I'm not casting aspersions but just trying to understand that you look at it—

[Sheila Fraser]

It goes through the same process and uses the same audit methodologies. It has the same quality assurance, procedures, internal and external advisers, reviews, and briefings to me and the commissioner on what the findings in the audit and the conclusions are. It's also the same regarding what points we want to emphasize and how are we going to present the message, even to the point where I review and comment on the commissioner's report, and we make suggestions on it. So it is the work of the Office of the Auditor General, and it follows the same standards as any other board.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

At what point did Madame Gélinas stop doing the work of the Commissioner of the Environment?

[Sheila Fraser]

Yesterday.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Is Mr. Thompson her replacement? Is he acting?

[Sheila Fraser]

Yes.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Square the circle for me. I'm trying to understand Mr. Thompson's capacity and experience, or lack of experience, when it comes to environmental issues, something that's essential to the role of the Commissioner of the Environment. How is this being proposed as an effective use of the Office of the Auditor General?

[Sheila Fraser]

Mr. Chair, the work of the commissioner's group has to continue. Audits are under way. We need someone who will lead that, and Mr. Thompson is a very experienced professional within the office. He has been responsible for a number of portfolios, including work on the north, which would include contaminated sites, for example. He has done work in fisheries, with salmon, and agriculture.

I think it's important for the committee to realize that the assistant Auditor General, who leads the group, is not alone. There are some 50 to 60 people working in that team, and many of them have environmental specialties and backgrounds. Also, where we don't have the expertise we need, we go out and bring in people to help us on our audits.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Have we been losing staff in the Commissioner of the Environment's office over the last number of months?

[Sheila Fraser]

We have not, to my knowledge, not any more than anywhere else within the office.

There have been some rotations. We have a policy of rotation within the office to ensure independence, and there have been some rotations of staff, but they have remained within the office.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

There seem to be two criticisms, if not of the commissioner herself, then of the role and the work that's been done by the commissioner, where there's been a straying into policy raised. It's been raised a couple of times now by you.

The second is the impact of reports not changing the government's view or direction, in the course of events.

Did Ms. Gélinas help create that gap, that stray, from purely auditing programs to straying into a policy recommendation field?

[Sheila Fraser]

As I indicated in my opening statement, I do not believe that any of our reports have strayed into policy areas. If we had felt we had gone over the line, the report would not have been published, because—

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

But you raise it as an issue. This is what I'm trying to understand. You raise it as an issue, that expectations have been created, and yet that policy stray hasn't happened.

[Sheila Fraser]

The policy stray has not happened, but I can tell members of the committee that we, on a fairly regular basis, receive requests from people who would like us to go much further. If the current role, as essentially an audit of government practices and environment and sustainable development, is the role the committee believes is sufficient.... Obviously, it's a very important role within our office and one we would intend to continue.

We are raising that there appears to be this expectation gap. It is not one that the Office of the Auditor General or the commissioner can address.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I'm sure—through you, Mr. Chair—that you must appreciate that the timing and circumstance of this is very difficult. The commissioner has come forward and said that she first heard about the notice of her departure through the media. It feels as if we've opened ourselves up for a wrongful dismissal suit. There are criticisms of what's happened within the commissioner's office, or expectations that have been created or put upon...that the impact has been insufficient. But we're not meant to connect those two criticisms to what is a very unusual, if not suspicious, departure of the head of that department.

I'm trying to understand. I understand that you can't comment on the specifics, but if the effectiveness is questioned, and there's a policy drift described, and the commissioner is dismissed—and you told us that she voluntarily left.... I don't understand.