Environment Committee on Nov. 23rd, 2023

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Mr. Chair, I'd just like to say a few words to wrap up.

Mr. Bonspille, thank you so much for your great testimony. This is about courage and dignity. We deeply appreciate it.

Mr. Chair, I'll now share the rest of my time with Mr. Garon.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Mr. Garon, Mr. Nicholas has his hand up. I don't know if you want to ask him a question. It's up to you.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

My questions will be for Mr. Nicholas in the next round.

I thank Mr. Deltell for giving me his speaking time.

[Member spoke in Mohawk]

[French]

Grand Chief, I hope that was said correctly. Welcome to the committee and thank you for being here.

The federal government has repeatedly said that this was an indigenous issue. It refused to act because the contaminated land was the subject of certificates of occupation, and Oka letters had been given to the two Gabriel brothers who operated that site.

Those letters of occupation have been returned to the band council, and now there are more administrative hurdles to intervening and decontaminating the land.

Can you clarify that again?

[Grand Chief Victor Bonspille]

Yes, that's correct. The owners of the G&R site did revert the lands back, and they had to go through our lands department, but for some reason that I can't explain, the lands department decided to share that information with my cohorts on council, the five chiefs who are against this. Now one of those chiefs has refused to share that and move it forward unless the federal government puts forward, in writing, a guarantee that if those lands are reverted to the Mohawk Council, the MCK, they won't leave us holding a contaminated site in the end.

We all know right now that we're holding that site. The site is there in Kanesatake. It's not going anywhere. It's still in the hands, unfortunately of.... Well, it's in the grey area now, because now that chief is holding the land transfer.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Grand Chief, we're going to have to go because the six minutes are up, but there will be ample time afterwards.

We have to go now to Mr. van Koeverden.

[Adam van Koeverden, Liberal, Milton, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Se:ko, Niawen'kó:wa for being here. Thank you for your leadership and your courage. It takes a lot of bravery to come here and be as forthcoming as you've been. I appreciate that. On behalf of this side of the committee, we thank you for your leadership.

The water of Kanesatake is important for a lot of reasons. It's not just drinking and irrigation; I know there's a big paddling community in Kanesatake as well. As somebody who got to use a kayak for 20 years, a white guy from Oakville, I want to say niawen'kó:wa for the sport that I enjoyed and that brought me around the world for a long time.

There were also some pretty awesome Mohawk paddlers I've looked up to over the years. Thank you for that. If you see Alwyn Morris one day, let him know I say hi.

Can I ask how the drinking water situation is in your community?

[Grand Chief Victor Bonspille]

The Kanesatake Health Center usually takes care of the drinking water. They take water samples every other month, I believe. It could be more than that. Usually the drinking water comes back satisfactory. That's the main response that every community member receives.

They have the opportunity to go further than that to do a deeper analysis of our drinking water, but I don't think too many members want to do that. It takes only a short matter of time. It takes, I believe, two weeks to get that extra analysis done. I did that, and the drinking water at my house showed a higher percentage of magnesium, I believe it was. They said it's normal to have that in drinking water that is coming from a well.

In all of Kanesatake, because we do not have an aqueduct system—we're all on wells—we're worried about that. As I said, we have three creeks running through the G&R site, which run into the Lake of Two Mountains. Some of our membership, like Mr. Cross here, live less than a kilometre away from that site.

One of the gentlemen was speaking earlier about water and how contaminants sit on top of the soil and seep into the earth and go into the water tables and then into our drinking water. Well, that's exactly what's going on in Kanesatake. We don't have the funding to do complete analyses or tests or assessments, so we don't know how deep this has gone. We do know that it is contaminated, through other assessments we've had through Health Canada and the T. Harris company. Right now, those assessments could go even further if my council—which just last night was voted out in a vote of non-confidence—would stop holding this land transfer hostage. Then the federal government would move forward with the right process and full funding to have that land assessed properly and remediated.

[Adam van Koeverden, Liberal, Milton, ON]

Thanks, Grand Chief.

Can I ask a couple of questions about the MCK, the Mohawk Council of Kanesatake? You kind of alluded to a bit of dysfunction and some challenges there. Do you have quorum right now?

[Grand Chief Victor Bonspille]

Yes, there is quorum among those five individuals, but we are a custom band. Our electoral code is a custom electoral code, and we practised our custom last night in the community meeting and voted those five members out.

They have taken me and Chief Valerie Bonspille to Superior Court, as well as 12 of my community members, for standing up for our hereditary right and custom. They're using our community funds. I, as grand chief, have to spend my own monies, and our community is spending their own money to fight these individuals, while they have an endless fund and are taking our band support to fight this issue against our community for this.

[Adam van Koeverden, Liberal, Milton, ON]

Okay.

I'm moving over to your communications with ISC, Indigenous Services Canada. Have you been in touch with Minister Hajdu? Have you had a conversation with her office?

[Grand Chief Victor Bonspille]

No, I have not. I sent multiple emails to her and, I believe, to one of her attachés, Natascha Barron-McNabb, to ask for conversations with her, but I haven't had any response, except.... The last response was when I asked for veto power. It didn't go anywhere.

[Adam van Koeverden, Liberal, Milton, ON]

Thanks, Grand Chief. Have you been offered mediation through Indigenous Services Canada?

[Grand Chief Victor Bonspille]

Yes, I have been, but we've had mediation before within the council, and during that mediation the Sûreté du Québec had to be called in because it was going to get physical. They've had to intervene in three of our meetings, so intervention—mediation—is out the window.

That is why I requested third party management: It's because these individuals have control and signing authority for our funding, and they're just wasting our community funds on lawyers, which, in fact, were terminated by our community in May.

Also, we have a criminal investigation that's ongoing, a fraud investigation, with the Sûreté du Québec, for breach of trust with the funds during the tenure of Serge Simon.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Garon, the floor is now yours.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Again, Grand Chief Bonspille, Mr. Cross, and Mr. Nicholas, thank you for being here today and for responding to my invitation.

The first file I started working on after being elected in 2021 was that one. We contacted the Department of the Environment and there were interactions with Minister Guilbeault and his office. One day, we were told that Minister Guilbeault could no longer get involved and that the file had been transferred to Mr. Miller. We no longer knew if it was Mr. Miller or Ms. Hajdu who was taking care of the matter. I consider myself an intelligent person, but I was very confused. At one point, no one was answering our calls.

I thought it might be easier for you, the people from the Mohawk Council of Kanesatake, to have ties with the federal government.

Have you had the same difficulties as I have in contacting the federal government for a major and urgent environmental problem?

[Grand Chief Victor Bonspille]

Yes, we've had those types of roadblocks, I guess, that we run into, but it just seems to me that the federal and provincial governments are passing the buck. Neither one of them wants to grasp or to take the reins of this issue fully, even though the federal government has offered suggestions and is floating agreements, I guess, until these five individuals on council agree.

I don't understand why the federal government would listen to five individuals who are holding up a potential rehabilitation plan for our community and the surrounding municipalities. Why would they allow this to happen? More and more people are going to get sick and more and more investigations are going to happen, and that's going to prove that it's because these sites were neglected, or this site was.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Grand Chief, I'd like to know more about that.

Basically, letters of occupation were to be returned to the council so that environmental action could be taken. Those letters were returned and—I'll put it in my own words—stolen by certain council members, which means that decontamination can't be done today.

You're asking for a veto to be able to make decisions, but the federal government is asking for the council's unanimous consent to decontaminate the location.

By asking for unanimity, is the federal government not simply giving a veto power to those who don't want to decontaminate?

[Grand Chief Victor Bonspille]

Yes, it's doing the exact opposite of my request.

As Grand Chief, I only gave this video request to the federal government out of respect, from my office, as I was trying to do some due diligence here, but I did not have to do that. I can go directly to my community and ask for veto power, and I do not want.... The request wasn't for veto power in all issues or to finish my mandate with veto power' it was veto power on that one issue concerning the health and welfare of my community and the surrounding municipalities. That's the only one, and it was stated in that request.

Now, with my request not being granted, yes, I do believe that they're giving the veto power and the control to these individuals who are abusing the word “quorum” to their advantage.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Grand Chief Bonspille, the federal government has already conducted studies on decontamination. Have they made you any offers? Has any work been done that could lead us to believe that the first stages of decontamination could begin tomorrow morning if the political situation allowed it?

If work has been started, is it now stalled?

[Grand Chief Victor Bonspille]

Yes, that is one of the three agreements proposed by the federal government: to have, I believe, the site assessed by their own people, by federal agents, I guess, or by federal entities that would do that. That is one of the reasons that these five individuals on my council are refusing that. They want to have control of the funding that will be coming in.

Why would a federal government give the funding to our governance, a governance that is under a fraud investigation?

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

What would that amount be?

[Grand Chief Victor Bonspille]

I believe it's $100 million plus.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

This demonstrates the importance of sound governance to ensure that these funds are spent in the interest of the community and to decontaminate the area.

Is that correct?

[Grand Chief Victor Bonspille]

Exactly. The only way to move forward is through collectiveness, and we don't have that.

What we have right now is our five individuals who have gone into, I guess, protective mode, aggressive mode, rogue mode. They have gone very rogue. They're not even listening to our community members, who have the last say in everything, in every decision. They're just not complying with any issues that are raised by our members or even by the federal government and provincial government.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Grand Chief Bonspille, you talked about the importance of the community and the fact that this was an environmental problem for the entire region.

Do you have the support of neighbouring municipalities, such as Mirabel, Oka and Saint-Placide?

You certainly have my support, but do you have the support of the MLAs in this fight to decontaminate the area?