Evidence of meeting #97 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was agency.
A recording is available from Parliament.
3:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
I call this meeting to order.
Good afternoon, everyone.
Welcome, Mr. Blaikie. I believe this is not the first time you have attended one of our committee meetings. If I am not mistaken, you have already stood in for Ms. Collins. At any rate, we are happy to have you here.
Mr. Mazier, you have the floor.
3:35 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
Just as a reminder, is there any word yet on the expenses from Dubai?
3:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
I have not been given anything. I have asked for them. There's only so much I can do. I have not heard back.
It's noted that you're requesting the expenses of the minister's delegation from the Dubai COP28. You've mentioned it here publicly. We'll see what happens.
I would like to welcome the three witnesses who will appear during the first hour of the meeting.
From the International Institute for Sustainable Development, we have Scott Higgins, senior research scientist, Experimental Lakes Area; Claire Malcolmson, executive director of the Rescue Lake Simcoe Coalition; and André Bélanger, executive director of the Rivers Foundation.
Each witness will have five minutes for their opening remarks.
We will start with Mr. Higgins, who is joining us virtually.
Go ahead, Mr. Higgins. You have five minutes to give an opening statement.
3:35 p.m.
Scott Higgins Senior Research Scientist, Experimental Lakes Area, International Institute for Sustainable Development
Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and honourable committee members. Thank you for inviting me to speak with you today.
My name is Dr. Scott Higgins. I am a senior research scientist at the International Institute for Sustainable Development Experimental Lakes Area. I'm pleased to be speaking to you today from Treaty 1 territory, the traditional lands of Anishinabe, Cree, Ojibwa-Cree, Dakota and Dene peoples and the homeland of the Métis nation.
I am very honoured to provide testimony to this committee on behalf of my organization. This is a very important topic that affects all sectors and peoples of Canada. The IISD Experimental Lakes Area has played an important role in understanding and providing scientific guidance for policy-makers, managers, industry and the public for over 50 years, first within the federal government and now as a non-profit research-based organization. As our name implies, we focus on freshwater issues that affect Canadians. We have years of experience in research, monitoring and data, which is what I will speak about today.
With respect to the federal responsibility for water, we recommend that a priority of the Canada water agency is to develop a national water strategy that would include facilitating collaboration across jurisdictions and sectors, improving access to national freshwater data and facilitating priority areas of research. Given the importance of water to all sectors and peoples of Canada, a national water strategy is of strong national interest.
With respect to research, I would like to start by highlighting that Canada is recognized as a world leader in freshwater science. Our research at the IISD Experimental Lakes Area and that of our colleagues at Canadian academic and government institutions has made significant global contributions to understanding the impacts and risks to freshwater systems and providing science-based management and policy solutions.
An important driver of my organization's success has been the highly collaborative nature of our research, which includes academic and government researchers, indigenous peoples, industry, NGOs and other stakeholders. We have found that this collaborative model helps break down barriers, is highly cost effective and leads to strong management and policy outcomes. For this reason, we feel that a key role of the Canada water agency should be to facilitate collaboration between government departments at all levels and the many stakeholders in the water sector to undertake activities required for managing the complex nature of Canada's water systems.
We recommend that the federal government, through the Canada water agency, should take a leadership role in identifying issues at the regional and national scales that require further research and facilitate the creation of national collaborative teams to tackle them. This would require coordination of funding from government, private sources and programs, many of which already exist but are fragmented across different agencies.
With respect to monitoring, we recommend that a national water strategy include routine national assessments of lake and stream water and groundwater. Routine national water assessments are an issue of national security and importance. Without them, we are not able to understand the state of our freshwater systems and to identify risks to the public, to our ecosystems and to all sectors of our economy. Further, a national monitoring program would help identify emerging issues of regional and national importance where management and policy interventions, or further research, are needed.
This brings me to my final points, which are about data. Currently, water quality data in Canada is widely dispersed across different levels of government and sectors. It's very challenging to access. Millions and millions of dollars are spent on collecting data, and yet it often sits on shelves gathering dust. Canada needs a national database that is open and accessible to everyone.
In our experience, the public wants to know about water issues where they live. This knowledge can help drive effective stewardship. There are examples from other countries on how this has been achieved. There are also great examples from Canada—DataStream, for one—that bring in data from disparate sources like governments, academics, first nations and community groups and provide it in an accessible way to scientists, managers and the public.
Thank you very much for your attention. I look forward to answering your questions.
3:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Thank you, Dr. Higgins.
We'll go now to Ms. Malcolmson for five minutes, please.
3:35 p.m.
Claire Malcolmson Executive Director, Rescue Lake Simcoe Coalition
Thank you very much for the very last-minute invitation to join this committee.
Hello.
I'm the executive director of the Rescue Lake Simcoe Coalition.
Lake Simcoe is in an art map behind me. It's in southern Ontario, an hour north of Toronto. It's the poster child for the impacts of development on a lake. It's the most intensively studied lake in Canada, as far as I know, with the exception, probably, of the experimental lakes.
I'm here to talk about the fact that there are so many interrelated, multi-jurisdictional issues that data alone, although important, cannot solve the problems. We have watershed legislation at Lake Simcoe that should be protecting the lake. However, most of the targets we are trying to achieve continue to get further and further out of our grasp. What I want to impress on the committee here is the very serious need for the federal government to act on the policies you already have. I'm speaking about, in particular, impacts to Lake Simcoe from the Bradford Bypass highway.
That's my overview. I'm going to step back a bit and acknowledge that Lake Simcoe is in the territory of Williams Treaties first nations. There are two first nations that currently reside on the lake. The Georgina Island first nation is one of our 30 member groups. I'm not speaking on their behalf, but we learn from each other and have developed relationships. We have a lot to learn from our first nations and I hope they're coming to this committee, too.
There are a number of things in my brief that I applaud the federal government for taking action on. I think it's very important to recognize that land use affects water more than anything else. I appreciate, in particular, tying affordable housing money to municipal density bylaws. That's because, at Lake Simcoe—where we have 500,000 people living in the watershed, including in the cities of Barrie, Orillia, Newmarket and Bradford—sprawl is the biggest growing impact we have. Of course, it overlaps with another federal priority I appreciate: reducing the impacts of climate change and reducing our greenhouse gas emissions. We have to do that to save Lake Simcoe, save our climate and protect our water from the impacts of salt pollution, which is a huge issue we've just taken up in a serious way in the last couple of months.
I'm talking about land use planning and how these activities interact with water quality. For the Bradford Bypass highway, for example, we know we didn't get an impact assessment. We tried twice. We know the impact assessment tool is a bit of a hot topic, so leaving that aside, we're still very concerned that our waters are not protected. The Bradford Bypass proponents have identified, in their fisheries information, that they found the American eel. That is a federal jurisdiction: endangered species. This was identified by first nations, another area of federal jurisdiction.
We have reviewed all this information and find it lacking. I'm going to be sending a letter to the DFO. Currently, the DFO says they are going to wait and see if they are asked to review this information. I submit that this is the wrong approach when we have a very big project. It is frankly not appropriate for the 21st century. It's a 16-kilometre highway over 13 water bodies, one of which is currently choked with salt already. It's not appropriate to let a project like that go ahead.
Clearly, everyone in the Government of Ontario has removed the brakes. The guardrails are being dismantled, so we need the federal government to act on the powers it already has to protect the fish. The quality of the water, of course, has a major impact on the fish.
3:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
That is time, Ms. Malcolmson.
It's a very interesting position, which I'm sure will generate a lot of discussion. It is closely related to the topic of water quality and the role of the Fisheries Act in protecting water quality.
Mr. Bélanger, over to you.
You have five minutes for your presentation.
3:45 p.m.
André Bélanger General Manager, Rivers Foundation
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Chair, esteemed members of the committee, thank you for your invitation. It's a pleasure to be here today.
For 20 years now, the Rivers Foundation has been working on water quality, access to riverbanks and protecting our rivers' natural state. We believe in increasing and expanding the respectful uses of water and waterways so that more people enjoy, care for and protect water.
Among the challenges we are currently facing, the first is to dispel the false perception that urbanized waterways and rivers are dirty and polluted. Our rivers are no longer the dumping grounds they once were, even though there are still major challenges in terms of treating municipal, industrial and agricultural waste water and there are too many microplastics and emerging contaminants. Be that as it may, we have to reclaim our waterways.
In addition, we must dispel the false perception that water can be contained, channelled and controlled. As you know, because of climate change, there is too much water in some places and not enough elsewhere. If we were smart and allowed waterways to flow freely, they could help us better adapt to climate change.
I bring this up because we are mediators in the field of information. We interpret data with the intention of protecting our water sources and rivers. We take knowledge and we act on it. To be able to act, we have to start by taking a balanced, holistic and pragmatic look at the situation. That is what we did when we tackled the issues related to municipal waste water treatment in Quebec. We organized the data that was provided by municipalities and collected for years by the Government of Quebec.
The previous witness mentioned that a lot of data is being collected. Indeed, we are almost obsessed with data. However, no one analyzes the data. Not a lot of people get useful information out of it, but that is precisely what our organization has managed to do. We processed the data using the Microsoft PowerBI platform. We developed an extraordinary diagnostic tool called AuditEAU. This tool enables us to publish annual rankings based on wastewater overflows and a map that allows us to compare how various municipalities in Quebec are performing.
The impact was immediate: The media relayed the information, citizens became involved and, above all, elected officials got on board and made the necessary changes. AuditEAU has become a tool for the public good that enables elected officials, citizens and departmental officials to do their work better. Moreover, the Quebec Ministry of the Environment has acquired a licence for the software to use it with its own data.
The Canada Water Agency needs to be a data exchange facilitator. We talk about data all the time. Protecting water is a complicated business. We have to find solutions that go beyond administrative divisions, solutions that almost always fall under shared jurisdictions.
So how can we get the agency to contribute in the right way to provincial efforts, particularly in Quebec?
First, the agency must have the role of facilitator to foster the intersection of scientific, public, private, citizen and indigenous expertise. It could encourage the development of simple, powerful indicators that work to motivate people. A performance indicator does not have to be perfect. In fact, it must definitely not be left solely in the hands of scientists, because people on the ground have to get involved and ask the right questions. A good indicator makes it possible to measure and take concrete action to protect our waterways.
That's what our annual rankings do. We developed an overflow per capita intensity indicator, which allows us to compare municipalities. We now see that the municipalities are on board. In the Gaspé, we established a direct link between sewage discharges and the ban on shellfish harvesting. Fisheries and Oceans Canada had taken samples far too long ago, and the analysis showed that there were contaminants from water treatment plants. That could enable us to develop indicators.
Second, the agency must facilitate data sharing. Data is collected in Canada and we don't know what to do with it. Why is the data being collected? What are the datasets used for? What kind of picture do they paint? Are there any comparisons to be made?
The agency can and should support the sharing of as much data as possible, develop interoperability mechanisms for open data, and support citizen data mining efforts that might seem to provide different results at first glance.
Third, the agency must facilitate the participation of civil society in the search for solutions. Protecting water requires the active and engaged participation of civil society. Citizen organizations are creative. They are committed and they know how to get governments to act. You are prime witnesses to this effect.
Innovations will emerge from the bottom up, and the agency must support citizen involvement and science initiatives. The Action-Climat Québec funding program, which funds citizen involvement in efforts to fight and adapt to climate change, is a good example.
In its role as a facilitator, the agency must serve as a unifying force. This must be done while respecting each province's jurisdiction, of course, but to succeed collectively, we need this unifying body that will allow information to be shared.
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Thank you. That's very interesting. I'm sure your presentation will generate a lot of questions.
We will now begin the first round of questions. We'll start with Mr. Kram.
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Kram Conservative Regina—Wascana, SK
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to all the witnesses for being here today.
I start with Ms. Malcolmson from the Rescue Lake Simcoe Coalition. In your opening statement, Ms. Malcolmson, you talked about how the targets that you are trying to achieve are further and further out of your grasp. Can you elaborate on what exactly these targets are?
3:50 p.m.
Executive Director, Rescue Lake Simcoe Coalition
The Province of Ontario passed the Lake Simcoe Protection Act in 2008 and the plan in 2009. I was the lead campaigner for environmental defence to get that legislation, with Rescue Lake Simcoe and Ontario Nature.
The main problem we have at Lake Simcoe is phosphorus pollution, so we have a target of reducing the annual phosphorus loads to the lake from, now, about 90 to 100 tonnes, to 44 tonnes a year. When you compare the two most recent 10-year periods, our phosphorus loads are actually going slightly up. This was 100% anticipated by the previous provincial government, in some study that they did at our request as part of multi-stakeholder work to analyze the impacts of growth development on the watershed, so really, it's stormwater and urban development that are driving that increase or the fact that we are not making substantial gains. The only reductions that are known have come from improvements to sewage treatment plants—and thank you very much, as I think there was federal funding for that too—but it's limited. We've picked the low-hanging fruit, so reducing phosphorus at this point is increasingly challenging.
I will just note that I also appreciate that the federal government made a $24-million contribution and really kick-started getting a phosphorus treatment plant on the Holland River built, and the province is now aiming to get that done in this administration.
There are other targets as well: Trying to achieve 40% high-quality natural cover is one of those. That also fits with the 30 by 30 target the federal government has. We have nowhere near 40% high-quality natural cover in the watershed. That's one of those really important indicators for health, and also, of course, it's important for climate change. We're making no progress on that.
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Kram Conservative Regina—Wascana, SK
Let's come back to phosphorus levels. It was my understanding that the previous federal Conservative government had a program called the Lake Simcoe clean-up fund, and reducing phosphorus levels was one of the goals of that program. It's my understanding that, during that time, the phosphorus levels were actually going down, and that this was measurable, demonstrable and all the rest. Do you have any views on the Lake Simcoe clean-up fund and the work that was done at that time?
3:50 p.m.
Executive Director, Rescue Lake Simcoe Coalition
It was really important to have that fund. Mostly, the conservation authority and the Ontario government used that money. I don't really care which government produces the fund or names the fund. The name of the fund is not important to me, but what's important to the lake and to the people who care about it is the effect.
Again, if you look at the phosphorus loads and compare two recent decades, they're not going down. We have not done enough to control the pollution, and the pollution is stormwater and overland pollution. It comes from farming—and all sorts of sectors as well, of course—but the growing sector is growth, and that, again, is why we come back to fighting sprawl in southern Ontario and in this very delicate watershed. I think it's important to make the connection between land use and water.
What I really don't want is for the government to say, “We'll just keep throwing money at this and it's going to be fine.” I'm here to say that's not enough. We appreciate the money, of course, but to be clear, my organization has never received federal funding for this kind of work. We continue to advocate and to talk about the need to control sprawl for so many reasons. Money's great, but we need enforcement of existing policy and we need teeth.
3:55 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Kram Conservative Regina—Wascana, SK
I like a lot of what you said in that throwing money at a problem is not necessarily the best practice, and how the name of a program is not necessarily what's the most important.
In terms of the actual, tangible policies—we had the Lake Simcoe clean-up fund in the past and various provincial government programs—can you point to any government initiatives that worked well, or maybe did not work so well?
3:55 p.m.
Executive Director, Rescue Lake Simcoe Coalition
Yes. What has worked well is throwing money at improving the technologies used at the sewage treatment plants.
Throwing money at stormwater management has also worked well. Stormwater is about 30% of the phosphorus load. As some of you may be aware, it turns out that technology doesn't save us from all of the harms. Actually, some of the methods that we think are going to work end up not working that well in a few decades, and that's the case with stormwater management ponds.
Some of them have become a source of phosphorus pollution because of the type of anaerobic digestion that happens and the fact that we have a lot of salt. We need to manage salts—
3:55 p.m.
Liberal
3:55 p.m.
Liberal
Lloyd Longfield Liberal Guelph, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses.
I'd like to start with Mr. Bélanger.
I know there's been some experience around the Mercier lagoons with PCBs, the contamination of groundwater and the plume that's created, which is a real challenge to drinking water.
Up in Kearl, we met with the representatives around the leak in the tailings pond. I recently spoke with Chief Tuccaro from the Mikisew Cree First Nation about the challenges there, which have naphthenic acid and heavy metals.
You mentioned in your testimony the monitoring and the tools that have been developed to monitor contamination. Could you tell us how those could be modified for areas where naphthenic acid is the concern, or where PCBs would be the concern somewhere else? Is this monitoring adaptable to the different conditions we're trying to monitor?
3:55 p.m.
General Manager, Rivers Foundation
We have the technological tools. They are readily available. Certainly, we've been focusing a lot on fecal coliforms and a little less on chemical pollution. The tools and technologies exist. The challenge we have is to make information available quickly so that it can lead to decision-making.
In the case of the Mercier lagoons, the situation is desperate. The lagoons site is being decontaminated and that work will carry on indefinitely. In Blainville, they are talking about expanding a toxic waste dump. The authorities are claiming that the membrane is watertight, but it will break down over time.
There is the challenge of transparency, of communication. You have to make sure that people are aware of the risks and understand them, and that follow-up work is done based on the information previously communicated.
Again, a lot of information is being collected, but we should be setting targets, including preventative ones.
3:55 p.m.
Liberal
Lloyd Longfield Liberal Guelph, ON
Thanks.
Chief Tuccaro also mentioned that some of his people used to go out on the land and use the snow to make their tea. Now, he isn't sure, because people are getting sick. Can they use the snow? Having some type of field analysis would be important.
Is this the type of thing we could bring through the Canada water agency?
3:55 p.m.
General Manager, Rivers Foundation
Absolutely. As soon as we establish an acceptable standard across the country, we have to ask ourselves some questions. We can verify, on the ground, whether those standards are being met and respected. Obviously, the standards have to be based on environmental and scientific factors, not political ones.
So the answer to your question is yes, the agency could also serve in that capacity.
3:55 p.m.
Liberal
Lloyd Longfield Liberal Guelph, ON
That's helpful. Thank you very much.
I'd like to go to Mr. Higgins next.
The Experimental Lakes Area was near and dear to me. I grew up in Winnipeg. I used to canoe in that area where the experimental lakes are. It was closed under the Harper government. We found ways of keeping it open through the province, through Ontario, and then later on, the federal government stepped in.
I spoke with a chief up in Dryden, who talked about the need to start with clean water. The monitoring of that water is very important, if there's a paper mill nearby, for the indigenous communities to know whether the water is acceptable or not.
Could you comment on whether the experimental lakes have been working with field monitoring and the ability to look at the lakes in real time, or is that an opportunity for the Canada water agency?
4 p.m.
Senior Research Scientist, Experimental Lakes Area, International Institute for Sustainable Development
I think there are a lot of opportunities there.
At the IISD Experimental Lakes Area, especially since we have transferred to being a non-profit agency, we have been reaching out to our first nations partners. Many of them, especially in Treaty No. 3 territory, are developing their own community-based monitoring programs, and we are facilitating that development where we can.
I think you're absolutely right that citizens are concerned about their water quality. Is it safe? Is it drinkable? Is it swimmable? In order for them to know that, not only does the monitoring have to be done but they also need access to the data, and they need it in a rapid fashion.
4 p.m.
Liberal
Lloyd Longfield Liberal Guelph, ON
The water training centre and water monitoring centre in Sioux Lookout go into the NAN nations in different places, where filtration solutions have been put in place, and then there is a flood event or there is an industrial event. Part of your testimony was about being able to have open access to data. Could you confirm some of that? I have only a few seconds left.
4 p.m.
Senior Research Scientist, Experimental Lakes Area, International Institute for Sustainable Development
Yes. One of our concerns is that, while there's a lot of data being collected on monitoring by different agencies across the country, that data is not readily accessible to scientists, to the public or to governments. It needs to be more available.