Evidence of meeting #97 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was agency.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:50 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
Yes. I'll reiterate what we're asking the committee to consider:
The committee call on the Liberal government to cancel their planned tax hike on April 1, 2024; abandon their plan to quadruple the carbon tax to provide Canadians financial relief on their gas, groceries and home heating; acknowledge that the carbon tax is not an environmental plan, it's a tax plan; and that the committee report [this] to the House.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
5:50 p.m.
Liberal
Lloyd Longfield Liberal Guelph, ON
I move to adjourn debate so we can get back to the witnesses.
(Motion agreed to: 7 yeas; 4 nays)
5:50 p.m.
Liberal
Lloyd Longfield Liberal Guelph, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses.
I'd like to ask some questions of Ms. Livingstone and Mr. Frey around data and the usability of data. In my previous life, we had remote machine condition monitoring that we put on machines around Canada. We would get a text message if a paper machine in Alberta was running too hot. We would get another message from an oil rig in Dubai to say that the vibration was excessive.
So there are ways to monitor things but to then also get notifications when data is showing that a condition has changed to the point where somebody needs to pay attention.
We asked Imperial Oil to give us data on the wells up in Kearl, where there was a spill. They gave us pages and pages of columns and rows of data—just numbers. It wasn't usable to us or anybody else. The Alberta Energy Regulator was supposed to get a report when things were out of condition. We were supposed to get a report when things were out of condition. No report happened.
When we talk about data and usability, Ms. Livingstone or Ms. Holman, is that something we could reasonably expect if we asked for it—to have usable data?
5:55 p.m.
Program Manager, DataStream
Yes. I think it's a reasonable request. The amount of effort that would be required to make the data that's out there usable will vary, obviously, but otherwise, what's the point of collecting the data? That's one of the things we have spent a lot of time thinking about and doing. We're doing the in-the-weeds grunt work of taking data in all its forms, whether it's in a PDF document or an Excel sheet, with, as you said, different rows and columns, and bringing it together into one format. That way, for the people who want to make sense of it and who want to analyze, interpret and synthesize it into reports that policy-makers and communities can understand, it's a lot easier.
I have a fun fact for you. There's a rule of thumb that researchers will spend between 60% to 80% of their time just cleaning, formatting and making data usable. Harnessing the people who are out there trying to do this, to make it easier for others to use, is an important priority, I would say.
5:55 p.m.
Liberal
Lloyd Longfield Liberal Guelph, ON
I'll go back to Chief Tuccaro and to what he said during our recent conversation: Can the kids go swimming? Who can tell me whether the water is good enough for the kids in my community to go swimming?
If the water sensors had Wi-Fi and were putting data out, then there could be a yellow, red or green indicator for community members to easily see whether the water was safe for swimming, as an example.
5:55 p.m.
Program Manager, DataStream
That's a really great example. I know that Swim Guide is a tool that will take raw data and turn it into those types of results.
Maybe Larissa can speak to that.
5:55 p.m.
Director, Science and Policy, Ottawa Riverkeeper
I just wanted to add something on the question about the usability of data. When government is collecting data from industry and they're required to report, why is it not a requirement to provide it in a digital format? They provide it in a paper format. It renders it basically useless. How do you use that data to understand cumulative effects?
I'd love to have things like sewage overflows being identified when they're happening so that people know that it's not a good time to go swimming. That's an example of immediate pieces, but there are other reporting tools as well.
5:55 p.m.
Liberal
Lloyd Longfield Liberal Guelph, ON
Thank you.
Mr. Frey, you mentioned the decision support tools and whether organizations are the ones that take the data and make it into a form that people can understand or whether there are licence fees involved. Is there a model that you're leaning toward with the data that you're using through Aquanty?
5:55 p.m.
Director of Research, Aquanty, As an Individual
We try to use data that's open source wherever possible. Then we'll clean it and reissue it as cleaned open source data. With Canada1Water, for example, we spent the better part of three years, in a team of probably five people, cleaning national-scale data. It will be reissued as open source, readily accessible, clean data for hydrologic modelling.
5:55 p.m.
Liberal
Lloyd Longfield Liberal Guelph, ON
We had the monitors, so we made sure that the data was clean. We put it up on the Net so that people could see whether their machines were operating efficiently or not. Maybe it's through the monitor system.
5:55 p.m.
Director of Research, Aquanty, As an Individual
That's a good point. That's actually the next generation of hydrologic prediction. Not only do models and prediction tools ingest raw data from real-time sensors that are run by the respective groups; they also use that data to make decisions and issue alarms in real time. South Nation watershed, almost where we are, is an example. They're running real-time systems that will soon have alarms.
5:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
This has been a very interesting discussion, tying data to watersheds. I want to thank the witnesses for very interesting input for our study. We really appreciate it. Thank you to those online, as well.
Members, we have a couple of very brief items of committee business.
We have to submit a budget for our travel to Kearl. You should have received the budget. I just need your approval to be able to submit it to the liaison committee. The dates would be May 13 for three nights and four days, including travel from the constituency. Can I submit that?
Yes, Ms. Taylor Roy.
6 p.m.
Liberal
Leah Taylor Roy Liberal Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
I'd also like to submit a motion.
It's in reference to our water study. It's unusual to have one of those that's in reference to the study we're doing.
It reads:
That in reference to the water study the committee hold two additional meetings after its 13th meeting to hear from witnesses, with each panel including one witness suggested by each party as per usual; that the committee also hold a further additional two meetings exclusively dedicated to hearing from representatives of those provinces and territories able to attend.
6 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Thank you.
Is there discussion, or can we go straight to a vote?
6 p.m.
Bloc
6 p.m.
Bloc
Monique Pauzé Bloc Repentigny, QC
Okay.
Before I agree to two more meetings, I would like to know whether we should study certain topics in more depth.
We have to face the fact that we can't invite all the organizations that work in the water sector and hear them talk about what they do. We have a pretty good idea of what that is.
Are there any topics that haven't been addressed or sufficiently studied yet?
In what direction are we going, exactly?
6 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
The two additional meetings are mainly to hear from witnesses we really should hear from. I'm thinking, for example, of the commissioner of the environment, who would like to appear, and the two provincial representatives.
We are also trying to invite someone to discuss the U.S. global water strategy, because that will tie in with what we will be talking about on Thursday.
If we don't have enough witnesses, we could also hold a single meeting.
6 p.m.
Bloc
Monique Pauzé Bloc Repentigny, QC
With regard to meeting with witnesses from the provinces and territories, including Quebec, at the beginning of the study I spoke with the Quebec minister of the environment, the fight against climate change, wildlife and parks, Mr. Benoit Charette, and he told me that he did not want to appear before our committee.
I started looking into it and I was told that Quebec ministers don't usually appear before parliamentary committees. They may have done it at one time, but they are not interested at this point.
6 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
We could hear from government officials, and if they don't want to come, they won't come.
6 p.m.
Bloc
Monique Pauzé Bloc Repentigny, QC
I agree. However, when some of the witnesses from the provinces and territories are public officials and others are ministers, I find that the two levels are quite different.