Evidence of meeting #45 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was problem.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jennifer Stoddart  Privacy Commissioner, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Lisa Campbell  Senior Legal Counsel, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Carman Baggaley  Senior Strategic Policy Analyst, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Wayne Watson  Director General, Investigation and Inquiries Branch, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Steve Johnston  Senior Security and Technology Advisor, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative David Tilson

Good morning. This is the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics, meeting number 45, on Tuesday May 8, 2007.

The order of the day, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), is a study on the topic of identity theft.

We have before us today, from the Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Jennifer Stoddart, the Privacy Commissioner; Wayne Watson, who is the director general, investigation and inquiries branch; Carman Baggaley, who is the senior strategic policy analyst; Steve Johnston, who is the senior security and technology adviser; and Lisa Campbell, who is the assistant general counsel.

Commissioner, you have brought quite a force with you today; these are pretty impressive names. We do appreciate that. You're our first group of witnesses on this topic, which the committee thinks is very important. Thank you very much for coming.

Please commence your presentation, and we will allow time for questions from the members of the committee. Thank you very much.

9:05 a.m.

Jennifer Stoddart Privacy Commissioner, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, for that welcome.

I'd like to begin by congratulating this committee for choosing to hold hearings on the very crucial issue of identity theft. As you have sensed—rightly—many Canadians not only are victims of identity theft, they are very anxious about what the government is going to do to combat it.

As this is, as you mentioned, Mr. Chairman, the initial session of your series of hearings, I brought quite a few people from my office who have specific expertise.

With your permission, I'll make a brief presentation. I think all the honourable members have a reference book that we've prepared for them.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative David Tilson

Yes. We do have that brief, Commissioner.

9:05 a.m.

Privacy Commissioner, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Jennifer Stoddart

Our submission is found at table 2, section 2. There is quite a bit of material that I thought would be useful, either today or when you're looking at subsequent testimony.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative David Tilson

Excuse me, Commissioner. Obviously the ladies and gentlemen before us have a certain expertise. I have introduced them with their titles, but perhaps you could elaborate on what they have to offer so questions might be directed to them.

9:05 a.m.

Privacy Commissioner, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Jennifer Stoddart

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I will do that.

I have two staff members, Valerie Akujobi and Johanne Séguin, who have prepared the overview.

Lisa Campbell is the assistant general counsel. She has worked as a criminal defence lawyer and has quite a background in criminal law. We thought that would be useful for the members because of the implications of modifications and applications of the Criminal Code.

Carman Baggaley has an extensive background in communications policy throughout the government, from different points of view.

Wayne Watson joined our staff last year. We're very happy to have him. In his previous incarnation, as they say, he was assistant chief superintendent in charge of white collar crime at the RCMP. I think he could answer your questions in a depth that I wouldn't be able to.

Steve Johnston, our chief technology and security adviser, is an engineer and has an extensive background working for the Canadian government in communications and security. He can answer all your technical questions.

As an introduction to the session then,

we're obviously talking about privacy and identity theft here.

I think it's appropriate to start by reminding ourselves that identity theft is one of the very serious privacy offences. These days, individuals must have control over their identity and over all the aspects that constitute it. That is central to their ability to participate in a democratic society and to enjoy government, financial and community services.

So as Privacy Commissioner, I consider identity theft one of the very serious invasions of privacy.

It has been said that identity theft is the ultimate privacy transgression. Unfortunately more and more Canadians and people worldwide are subjected to this privacy violation.

One of the things you'll see in our paper is that identity theft is hard to define. There's no one clear definition. I think that's one of the challenges we have when trying to come to grips with it. It certainly seems to cover the phenomenon of fraud. It covers the act of taking information from someone without their consent; but of course taking information from someone without their consent is not necessarily a criminal violation. It may be a violation of PIPEDA; however, as I understand it, until you do something with it, the law does not apply. So this is one of the challenges we have in trying to control it. The issue of intent and the issue of use are integral parts of identity theft.

With a definition that is flexible, there isn't a reliable series of statistics. We can give you various statistics. There are American, Canadian, and European statistics. We've given you here Canadian statistics for the year 2006. They're pretty impressive if you consider that $6 million of losses were reported to PhoneBusters, which is a police network run primarily by the Ontario police, the OPP.

ID thieves obtain information in many ways. I would refer you to the excellent paper that CPIC did. I think CPIC is appearing before you concerning all the ways ingenious wrongdoers can obtain your personal information. We've broken those down into three here: physical, technological, and what's called social engineering. These are the main ways in which information is obtained. Theft of your ID, theft of documents--this includes the usual phenomenon of stolen laptops, which happens throughout the public and private sector.

Unfortunately, in physical theft there is an increasingly recognized phenomenon of employee theft, insider theft, using people called moles. In French, on les appelle les taupes. These are people who, either for personal reasons or for financial reasons—because they're paid—pass inside information to outsiders. This is not a new phenomenon, but it seems to be accentuated, and both of the data spills that we're currently investigating—and Mr. Watson can talk to those—seem to have been precipitated by different kinds of insider wrongdoing.

In that group, too, I would put what's known as dumpster diving. This involves companies that don't shred or dispose of their personal information appropriately, and then people with a lot of initiative go through the dumpsters. I remember last year my fellow commissioner, Commissioner Frank Work of Alberta, was so exasperated by what reporters were finding in the dumpsters in Edmonton that he said the next person he was going to hire for his staff was a dumpster diver to police the dumpsters of the city, to make sure they got all the personal information before the ID thieves did.

With regard to technology, hacking into databases is increasing. Then there's the whole issue of spyware and malware—which Mr. Johnston can talk about—often carried by spam.

Finally, there is social engineering. That is something, unfortunately, with which I have some direct experience. This is passing oneself off as the real customer in order to get the customer's confidential information, for example, phone records kept with the telephone companies.

Bogus contests encourage people, and perhaps part of our population increasingly finds it difficult to distinguish the real contests from the bogus contests. I'm thinking about seniors. I'm thinking about people who perhaps are not following developments on the Internet for various reasons, and they can fall prey to this.

In our submission to you, Mr. Chairman, we are taking the position that this problem requires not only a global approach but also strong centralized, coordinated leadership to try to be effective in combating ID theft. We refer you to the American approach—and you have the conclusions of the presidential committee that was struck last year at the request of President Bush. It just brought down its report about two or three weeks ago. We have given you a copy of the conclusions of that report in your binder.

We'd also draw to your attention the Federal Trade Commission's identity theft data clearing house, which is a central place to report the phenomenon of identity theft, in order to understand its contours and its functioning a bit better.

What is the role of the Personal Information Protection and Electronic Documents Act, and is it adequate to counter identity theft?

PIPEDA is not a tool that, alone,enables us to combat this phenomenon. However, since it came into force six years ago, it has raised the standards of industry and commerce in Canada. In particular, it imposes restrictions on information gathering. The safeguard principle permits the secure and confidential holding of personal information. It also makes it possible to limit the time during which information may be kept, as well as the number of persons who have access to it.

In your recent report, you referred to notification of data breach. You also mentioned the extent to which such a standard was essential in the act. In cooperation with the industry, we are currently developing guidelines, pending amendments to the act.

Last fall, we established guidelines on what we call authentication. These are standards whose purpose is to enable us to allow a person to certify who he or she really is. For example, when we call the telephone company to obtain information on telephone calls, we have to prove to the company who we are. There are various type of authentication. Mr. Johnston can tell you about the standards suggested in the guidelines.

We also conducted an investigation into a number of complaints that were brought to our attention. Those investigations, I believe, have helped raise standards, particularly in the banking industry. Among other things, I'm talking about practices of sending unsolicited credit cards bearing the names of people. I believe that is a practice that disappeared a few years ago. We're also trying to investigate the practice of sending cheques accompanied by an offer of credit, if they are used, without people having requested them.

What are some of the legal sanctions that we could think of? Personally, I think we have to look at a range of measures. I don't think it's just an issue of the Criminal Code. As you know, our law administrators hesitate to use the Criminal Code: the standards of proof are higher, and the charter may apply, and so very often you have to have a fairly clear-cut case to use the Criminal Code.

That's why I think we should look at civil sanctions that are very easy to prove and easy for citizens, for example, to take to small claims courts, which may provide a more easily accessible deterrent to the growing industry of ID theft. This means, of course, that I think the federal government has to work closely with the provinces, because a lot of what happens in terms of ID theft falls within provincial jurisdiction. I think we've all heard about people in various provinces across Canada who have had their houses sold out from underneath them. This is something that basically falls within provincial jurisdiction—and I know you're going to hear from the provincial commissioners on this.

Pretexting is one of the most important ways that personal information is obtained, and it points to the fact that we need to know more about the ID theft industry: how does this work, who's making a profit from it, what is the network, who is helping it, and who is creating the demand for this illicitly obtained personal information?

My colleague the U.K. commissioner brought out a shocking report, quite frankly, on the personal information industry in the United Kingdom. We don't think those exact phenomena are in Canada, but I think the report is well worth reading. He has called for criminal sanctions and has, I think, successfully sued some of those who are in the industry of obtaining illegal personal information.

More recently here in Canada, there was a consumer report this winter on a Radio-Canada program called La Facture, documenting how in Canada's own financial industry there are moles working who are willing to sell information to a reporter posing as somebody in the personal information industry. We're following up on that, of course.

Not only is identity theft carried out in person, it's also increasingly carried out online. Some of the most common threats to your ID online include phishing. You have all received fake letters—and these are getting better and better—purporting to be from, or looking like they are from, your local bank and asking that you check your account numbers, and so on, because there has been a “problem”. These are getting more and more realistic, and again, I think there is a whole group of Canadians who are very vulnerable to them. And for all of us, it's getting harder and harder to distinguish the real from the false.

There is something called botnets. These are networks of computers that have been turned into robots at the service of a mastermind behind a criminal racket.

Trojans and worms are implanted in our computers to make them do things we can only guess at, and don't know, but which are in aid of more ID theft and fraud.

And then there is the phenomenon among young people of what one expert has called—and this is not my term—cyber exhibitionism, the latest form of socializing online at Facebook and MySpace, and so on. This means that increasing numbers of young people have all of their personal information spread over networks.

This has direct implications too for the Government of Canada, as we move to providing more and more services online through Service Canada, not just income tax but also our pensions, our queries, our veterans pensions, and so on. The threat of receiving false messages and having this network infected, I think, is rising.

You may have noticed in January, I think, there was a false message from the “Canada Revenue Agency”, or a false “Canada Revenue Agency” message, asking citizens to communicate with that agency. This was a fake message, but it looked remarkably like the real ones coming from Revenue Canada.

This could threaten online banking, and an increasing number of people do online banking.

So what can we do to prevent it? What is my office doing to prevent this?

Here we go not only to our investigation of complaints, but increasingly to public education. This committee has often stressed the importance of our role in public education. And you can see that we have a whole series of specialized brochures, fact sheets, and so on, that are reproduced for you in the binder. That's the information available to the public on our website.

We participated with the RCMP and the Competition Bureau in March—fraud prevention month—as well as with more than 20 other partners in a joint public education campaign. We stress the growing importance of encryption of personal information passing over the Internet. I was happy to see that you called for information destruction in your report on PIPEDA. That is implicitly part of the act, but I agree with you that we should make it more explicit, as too much information is just thrown away where enterprising people can find it.

To conclude, Mr. Chairman, I think we need clear leadership, the type of leadership that I'm sure this kind of committee could define. There's a federal-provincial task force on this to focus our ideas. They're setting up a clearing house with all jurisdictions. What is important is to get all the players together. It's not only the federal government; the provincial governments are extremely important. The police, federal and provincial, play a very important role. Those who prosecute—or can't prosecute, for lack of the tools—the people perpetrating ID theft have to be involved in this too.

I think we have to have the will to define and document this problem, and to find not just one magic bullet but the range of weapons, if I can use that terminology, in all the various areas—I've put some of them down there—ncluding the international area. We are being preyed on by folks across the border. Canada, as I have already pointed out to you, is the home, for example, of malicious spam that attacks people worldwide. So we have to cooperate with our neighbours and our trading partners on that.

Those, Mr. Chairman and honourable members, are the highlights of our presentation. I've brought all of these experts along to help me answer the questions you may have.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative David Tilson

Thank you, Commissioner.

Your introduction to this topic makes me even more alarmed than I was before, so I thank you for that. And I thank you for preparing this book, which we will use as research. Someone has taken a great deal of time to prepare it, and I thank you kindly.

As you know, we go in rounds for each caucus. The first round is seven minutes each, including the questions and the answers.

Mr. Pearson.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Glen Pearson Liberal London North Centre, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's nice to see you again, Commissioner. Thank you very much for coming.

Part of the thing we worry about is that, as we understand from the various testimonies we've had, things are mushrooming. It's difficult to get a handle on it. One of the things that we have to weigh, though, is that we don't want to have the kind of approach that's going to be too heavy-handed, because we don't understand fully what the problem is yet.

Now, you said that it's hard to define. And I understand that. I'm wondering if you can help us to understand. For instance, in the case of identity theft, do you keep facts, figures, and statistics about how many people have actually been charged with identity theft, how many have been prosecuted? Do you have that kind of information?

9:25 a.m.

Privacy Commissioner, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Jennifer Stoddart

No, we don't. At the OPC we don't keep that kind of information. And I'm not sure that it's kept in a systematic way throughout Canada.

Could I ask our lawyer on the staff to tell you about the kind of information that is available on who is charged?

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Glen Pearson Liberal London North Centre, ON

Sure.

9:25 a.m.

Lisa Campbell Senior Legal Counsel, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Good morning, Mr. Pearson.

Thank you for the question. It's a good one.

I think the commissioner said at the beginning as well that identity theft isn't well defined. It can range from someone taking your credit card number to wholesale misappropriation of your identity and impersonation.

The existing Criminal Code offences were in the main written when we were thinking about traditional notions of property. The problem for the fit with identity theft is that personal information, in and of itself, isn't valued as property. The difficulty when trying to apply the Criminal Code provisions is that unless you can show a direct causal link to economic loss or some other serious disadvantage, it's very hard to prove that someone has committed an offence—what we think of as identify theft.

There haven't been reported cases, that we're aware of, of identity theft per se. However, many people have been charged under the existing Criminal Code provisions. There are at least 12 that are used in the main, but other people have suggested about 40 that can apply to theft or fraud situations, conspiracy to commit fraud. But again, that's when the personal information is used. There are no offences in the Criminal Code that target simply possessing and collecting personal information.

Does that answer your question?

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Glen Pearson Liberal London North Centre, ON

It does. It's very interesting, because we're trying to strike a balance here as a committee, obviously, but what we actually don't have are the facts.

I notice in your conclusions you said that one of the things we have to do is define and document the problem. Can I ask you how you could see doing that? I'm sure you work with various agencies to do that. Would you have a national database? How would you do that?

9:30 a.m.

Privacy Commissioner, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Jennifer Stoddart

I think, first of all, Mr. Chairman, that you have to set up the appropriate organizational framework. The government either tasks one agency to take the lead or sets up some kind of light, temporary structure that can coordinate federal-provincial organizations, and then within that new organizational structure you define what you're going to collect and what you're going to report on. I think you have to have the means first and then start to collect the information in some kind of systematic way so that it can make sense more rapidly.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Glen Pearson Liberal London North Centre, ON

Do you have any suggestions as to who would take the lead in that, who you would think would be best suited?

9:30 a.m.

Privacy Commissioner, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Jennifer Stoddart

I did have the privilege of meeting the Minister of Justice last week. In fact, right after I appeared before you the last time, I suggested to him that this might be something that he could do: call up a federal-provincial task force with participation from all the key players and set up a coordinating structure in which all the various organizations can play a part.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Glen Pearson Liberal London North Centre, ON

One of the things people keep throwing out is the idea of a national identity card, something like that, a biometric kind of card; we hear about that for border crossings and so forth. I'd be interested in your view of that. Also, how do we monitor that? That, to me, seems to be very difficult, and I know it seems like it's a tell-all solution for everything. Do you have a view on that?

9:30 a.m.

Privacy Commissioner, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Jennifer Stoddart

Yes. My office has always been very critical of the idea of developing a national identity card because you can see, just from the short presentation, that if we can't keep control of the very disparate, fairly soft kinds of identity we have, I don't think—among other things, apart from the freedom and civil liberties implications—that we are ready to go to much stronger kinds of identity, because we don't know how to protect that kind of identity. I'm sure that at some point Mr. Johnston can speak in greater detail to that.

The stronger the forms of identification of individuals you have, the greater you run the risk of huge problems if those identities then are stolen. If my driver's licence is stolen now, I can still get another one; I can prove who I am at the bank, and this may not affect my passport, for example. But as you go to stronger forms of identity, and your identity is taken over by somebody else, you may have a real problem in proving you are who you are.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Glen Pearson Liberal London North Centre, ON

Right.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative David Tilson

Madam Lavallée.

9:30 a.m.

Bloc

Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

First, I'd like to thank our guest, Ms. Stoddart, and her colleagues, for being here this morning. The subject is fascinating, but I'll come back to that.

Please excuse me, but this is the only time I have, under our rules of procedure, to raise a logistical problem. So I apologize to our guests.

Mr. Chairman, the clerk told me earlier, before the meeting, that this was the only moment I had to request a change to the agenda. As you know, I announced it last week, I would have liked us to talk about the important motion that I introduced more than a week ago now concerning the internal report of the Department of Foreign Affairs on what is going on in Afghanistan. So I would really like to make this change to the agenda so that we can talk about it at the start of the meeting. Unfortunately, the clerk told me that that was not possible.

After speaking with my colleagues, particularly Mr. Wallace, we agreed together that, if you assure me that we can take half an hour at the end of the meeting to debate this motion, and perhaps another one, I could not insist that we amend the agenda in order to proceed immediately with a discussion of this motion.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative David Tilson

The chair is here really at the pleasure of the committee, and our guests have been asked to come here. The meeting goes from 9 until 11 o'clock. Normally what happens in these situations is that, if there's time at the end of the session, we proceed to other business.

Your proposed notice of motion is the second piece of business. If the committee wishes to make a declaration that this portion of the meeting on identity theft is to end at 10:30, then so be it. I'm not going to make that ruling. I would require direction from the committee. If the committee wants to do that, they're going to have to tell me. Otherwise, we will proceed with this delegation until whenever it ends, which could be 10:30 or it could be 11 o'clock.

It's really up to the committee, Madam Lavallée.

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC

How would you like to handle this then? Would you like some direction?

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative David Tilson

I'd like a vote. I'd like some sort of direction.

9:35 a.m.

Bloc

Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

The solution would be to put the question to a vote. I think we can vote on my request immediately. I don't know whether you call that a motion in your jargon, but I ask that we set aside 30 minutes at the end of this meeting, that is to say from 10:30 to 11:00 p.m., to discuss the motion on the agenda.

Do you want us to vote with a show of hands? Perhaps we could simply request unanimous consent.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative David Tilson

I'll take that as a motion.

Mr. Wallace.