Evidence of meeting #49 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was request.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to both of our witnesses for being here today.
Madam Sabourin, how long have you been working in the access to information field and the privacy section at Foreign Affairs?
9:45 a.m.
Director, Access to Information and Privacy Protection Division, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
I've been working in the access and privacy field since 1989.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON
In your experience, and I'm thinking back now to your full experience since you began in 1989, have you ever received direction from any minister's office--that would take you back through two Conservative administrations and one Liberal administration--with regard to the redaction of any documents that were the subject of an access to information request?
9:45 a.m.
Director, Access to Information and Privacy Protection Division, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Thank you very much for the question.
I have in fact worked with different administrations throughout the years. The Access to Information Act has a provision for the minister to delegate this function to officials. In all these instances, this function was delegated to the office that I would have worked in or in whose management I would have participated. Right now, I'm the delegated authority for Foreign Affairs and International Trade. In the previous year, I would have been a simple officer doing work.
The officials who work in access take their obligations very seriously. When I say “officials”, I mean I am part of this responsibility. This is a legally based provision of information. I would have examined the exemptions to make sure the exemptions were well documented and they in fact met the provisions of the act.
I'm aware there are processes in which we serve notification to the minister's office. For new requests or when there's a release, those requests are provided in terms of the disclosure package so that the minister's office can in fact prepare in the event of any questions.
With regard to being directly told by a minister's office to redact, I am not aware of such a practice. We are at arm's length, and it doesn't happen.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON
On the statement you just made, to the best of your knowledge--and I'm obviously only referring to your own experience--would this be a practice that has essentially been true since 1989, when you were first involved in this?
9:50 a.m.
Director, Access to Information and Privacy Protection Division, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Yes.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON
Okay. Let me ask you another question.
More specifically, because you are in the foreign affairs department, you would therefore only be responsible to your own minister and not to other ministers. Have you ever received political direction from Minister MacKay, his ministerial staff, or his political staff? Has anyone been directed by them to redact documents for which an ATIP request has been made?
9:50 a.m.
Director, Access to Information and Privacy Protection Division, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
The redactions are done with the involvement of the program area. In my office, I'm the delegated authority. At the end of the day, I'm the one making the decisions on disclosure. The minister's office is not involved in any of the review.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON
I know I've asked you a complex question. But would it be unfair to say the answer to the question I asked you is no?
9:50 a.m.
Director, Access to Information and Privacy Protection Division, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
That's correct.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON
Thank you very much.
I was going to ask the clerk if Mr. Tilson can take the rest of the time.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON
Oh, I'm sorry. All right. Yes, I asked if it was in order, but you're quite right, Mr. Chairman. I'm now asking you.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
I'm interested in a couple of things.
To either of you, The Globe and Mail in Toronto printed page 1 of the Afghanistan 2006 report. Underneath they had a part, and the first one had sections blacked out or redacted. The second page was completely clean, the page in the report. I don't know whether the second page was in fact the real page or not, but it's the story they gave.
Do you have any comments on what happened there? Do you have any information for the committee as to how The Globe and Mail appeared to get that information?
9:50 a.m.
Director General, Executive Services Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
No, we don't how The Globe and Mail got the information it has, nor do we know exactly what The Globe and Mail has.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
9:50 a.m.
Director General, Executive Services Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
One would have to address that question to The Globe and Mail.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
We may never find out. Well, maybe we will.
Some members of Parliament claim they have a report that is blacked out or redacted. As a member of Parliament, it's another word I've learned. I've always liked the words “blacked out”. But some members say they have an area that's greyed out and you can actually see through the colour. In other words, it's different from this one. Do you know anything about that? Have you ever seen the document?
One of the questions was asked here this morning. Someone said they could read through it. I don't have that. Where did they get it from?
9:50 a.m.
Director, Access to Information and Privacy Protection Division, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
I have no idea.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
Okay. You've gone through the process, and I appreciate how you come to a conclusion that there should be a redaction of certain paragraphs.
In addition to the sections in the act, which are given, are there any policies or regulations that guide you, Ms. Sabourin, in coming to those conclusions?
9:55 a.m.
Director, Access to Information and Privacy Protection Division, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Absolutely.
We have the act. We have its regulations. We have Treasury Board Secretariat guidelines that are quite extensive. Mind you, we'd like them to be updated to reflect court precedents, so that they're updated based on the current court decisions. We are guided by this guideline, which is about four inches thick. It helps us to confirm the application of exemptions.
9:55 a.m.
Liberal
Glen Pearson Liberal London North Centre, ON
I would like to thank you both for coming in.
I'm just trying to understand the process here, so please forgive me if I'm going over some old ground.
When a document is released by the Department of Foreign Affairs, is a communication assessment done on it before it is released?
